: )
The "Church" at Acts 2 is NOT the Body of Christ
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Ekklesia... would be the initial "Inner Camp" of Israel. According to Hebrews... Christ went outside the camp. This would be the "Gentile" Body of Christ.
Israel remained Israel... (Ekklesia)... but when the temple curtain rent... The beginnings of the "potential" for the body of Christ was seen. Because the Acts church you discuss hadn't experienced Pentecost yet... this is the vision of the true Messianic Israel... that preceded the Body of Christ. This would also make it a prophetic nod towards the end of days and what follows.
The Ekklesia in Acts is comprised of Jew for Jesus and thus... they remain grafted into God's immediate plan of dispensing the gospel to the Body of Christ. Because they were Ekklesia and IN Christ... they were a unification of the two bodies. Once Pentecost occurred...
Bang! Body of Christ initial preachers of the Spirit...
It is only until they plant outside of Israel that the true Gentile BOC begins.
Two bodies joined in Christ... but Ekklesia remains Israel and the Body of Christ is the age of "Gentiles". This nods towards Galatians where talk of separation of Jews and Gentiles is occurring.
Paul preaches vehemently against this!
In all of this we can distinguish Israel from the BOC and note that we are in a sense "Spiritual Jews", but only because we are indwelled by "The King of Jews".
To keep matters neat and clean.... Now instead of Jews being the Light... The Body of Christ is the gentile age light.
Believing Jews of the OT were Examples of Ekklesia in the final day, when Jews come fully to Messiah.
Now, with Israel fully re emerged... this understanding is imperative!
Please check my work and correct me if I'm wrong at any point.
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The Church of Acts ch 2 is the beginning members of the body of Christ--
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
The pre Pentecost church is comprised of Israelites for certain. They had to wait for the Spirit.
The distinguishing between the boc and Israel is evident... plus... it is still inside the camp of Israel. Hebrews 13:13
It is only until new planting occurs outside Israel that the full age of Gentiles begin. There is a handing over from Jews to Gentiles.... the sever is clere.
Plus ..Acts 11:26 is where the word Christian is discussed.
The distinguishing between the boc and Israel is evident... plus... it is still inside the camp of Israel. Hebrews 13:13
It is only until new planting occurs outside Israel that the full age of Gentiles begin. There is a handing over from Jews to Gentiles.... the sever is clere.
Plus ..Acts 11:26 is where the word Christian is discussed.
The only sever that is clear is just as already mentioned to Jerry previously herein, that is, yourselves cutting yourselves off from the Root. There is no "handing over from Jews to Gentiles" written anywhere. And as for your understanding of "outside the camp" it is a misunderstanding because it speaks of the Mishkan. Moshe placed the Mishkan-Tabernacle outside the camp and the Tabernacle is a large portion of the topic in the epistle to the Hebrews because it represents the body-temple-tabernacle of the testimony. Likewise nowhere does Paul say or even suggest that anyone gets to join the community and commonwealth of the all Yisrael of the Father and yet get to remain a Gentile. The point is to become circumcised, (in heart), and not to stay uncircumcised, (sorry but that simply does not just happen with the so-called "sinners prayer", it rather is a long walk after the fact, a walk of faith looking forward to the promise for which you were sealed from when you first believed). When you are circumcised in heart then you are no longer of the "uncircumcision", and then you begin to be weaned from the milk of the Word, coming into the knowledge and understanding of the meat of the Word. There are not going to be Canaanites or heathen in the house of Elohim, (this is all clearly symbolism), but your mind and mindset must become renewed, changed, altered away from the physical and natural minded man into the supernal and spiritual minded man in Messiah. See Matthew 15:24 and understand it within its surrounding context for the very first example of a Canaanite being grafted into Yisrael by faith. When you indeed become a son there shall no more be a Canaanite in the house of YHWH Tsabaoth, (Zechariah 14:21), and you are that house because every person is a house-temple of the Creator. This is not replacement theology but simply just the way it has always been and always will be. The holy seed line has been SPIRIT from the time of Enosh, son of Seth, and continues that way all the way through.
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION]
I am a typically neutral and kind hearted person. I rarely lock into doctrine issues... but Replacement Theology won't get respect from scripture, on my part.
This locks into Spiritual Israel dismantling and it is correct on many Levels.
I'm ready to back it. Israel is being divided by Islamic Hate via the UN Islamic majority. I won't support the doctrine fed blur that eliminates God's promises to Israel.
This fits perfectly with Prophecy that is backed by events and the Testimony of Yehoshua. I have had my blade towards spiritual Israel teaching for a few days now. This is important.
I will respond in time. My evening is full tonite.
You are defending SI. You do not want to see this doctrine carved up. But its time.
Jacob and 12 Sons... Jesus and 12 Disciples
Jesus is the true Tabernacle of YHWH and this is your theological error.
Jews are the Muscle of God... Christ Followers are the Spiritually purchased of God. He needs both bodies for His full purpose and final "Revelation".
You cannot see this because you don't fully understand the division of the covenants.
Shall we continue?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at what happened at the time of Pentecost. Peter realized that in order for the prophecies of Joel which he quoted (Acts 2:16) to continue to be fulfilled then the nation of Israel had to repent and be converted, as witnessed by his words here:
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21).
Israel did not repent and her opposition to the disciples of the Lord Jesus reached a climax at the stoning of Steven at Acts 7. In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:
"Matthew 12:31,32 states: 'Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world to come.'
"These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).
"But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven" (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).
"These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).
"But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven" (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).
The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is His Body. Shortly afterward Paul was converted and made the Apostle of the Gentiles.
At least that is the way that I see the transition.
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Wrong . . . :Nineveh:
Exodus 25:1-9
1 And YHWH spoke unto Mosheh, saying:
2 Speak unto bnei Yisrael, that they bring Me an offering: of every one that gives it willingly with his heart shall you take My offering.
3 And this is the offering which you shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass:
4 and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat hair:
5 and ram skins dyed red, and tachash skins, and acacia wood:
6 oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense:
7 shoham stones, and stones for setting for an ephod, and for a breastplate.
8 And let them make Me a miqdash-sanctuary so that I may dwell among them:
9 according to all that I show you, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.
You either do it or you do not and this is no different from the Testimony of Yeshua who clearly teaches that every individual is a house and the same which Paul teaches how you are the miqdash-body-temple of Elohim. We are admonished to pattern our own little miqdash-chapel-temple after the pattern of the greater Mishkan-Tabernacle with all its vessels. This no doubt means that all such things are supernal in meaning. For the same reasons above, Exodus 25:8-9, HaNavi Ezekiel a son of Man writes the following:
Ezekiel 11:14-20
14 Again the Word of YHWH came unto me, saying:
15 Son of man, your brethren, even your brethren the men of your kindred and all the house of Yisrael, all of them are they unto whom the inhabitants of Yerushalem have said, "Get you far from YHWH: unto us is this erets-land given in possession!"
16 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: Although I have cast them far off among the gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the aretsot-lands, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the aretsot-lands where they shall go.
17 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the aretsot-lands where you have been scattered, and I will give you the adamah-soil of Yisrael.
18 And they shall enter therein, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof, and all the abominations thereof from that place.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim.
The new Spirit is the Testimony of Yeshua which is the Spirit of the Renewed Covenant.
Sorry for your luck but there is no such thing as a "house of the Gentiles" . . .
Wrong . . . :Nineveh:
Exodus 25:1-9
1 And YHWH spoke unto Mosheh, saying:
2 Speak unto bnei Yisrael, that they bring Me an offering: of every one that gives it willingly with his heart shall you take My offering.
3 And this is the offering which you shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass:
4 and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat hair:
5 and ram skins dyed red, and tachash skins, and acacia wood:
6 oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense:
7 shoham stones, and stones for setting for an ephod, and for a breastplate.
8 And let them make Me a miqdash-sanctuary so that I may dwell among them:
9 according to all that I show you, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.
You either do it or you do not and this is no different from the Testimony of Yeshua who clearly teaches that every individual is a house and the same which Paul teaches how you are the miqdash-body-temple of Elohim. We are admonished to pattern our own little miqdash-chapel-temple after the pattern of the greater Mishkan-Tabernacle with all its vessels. This no doubt means that all such things are supernal in meaning. For the same reasons above, Exodus 25:8-9, HaNavi Ezekiel a son of Man writes the following:
Ezekiel 11:14-20
14 Again the Word of YHWH came unto me, saying:
15 Son of man, your brethren, even your brethren the men of your kindred and all the house of Yisrael, all of them are they unto whom the inhabitants of Yerushalem have said, "Get you far from YHWH: unto us is this erets-land given in possession!"
16 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: Although I have cast them far off among the gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the aretsot-lands, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the aretsot-countries where they shall go.
17 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the aretsot-lands where you have been scattered, and I will give you the adamah-soil of Yisrael.
18 And they shall enter therein, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof, and all the abominations thereof from that place.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim.
The new Spirit is the Testimony of Yeshua which is the Spirit of the Renewed Covenant.
Sorry for your luck but there is no such thing as a "house of the Gentiles" . . .
Daqq,
I'm off for the night... but... so it begins.
Do you believe the Holy Spirit is the indwelling presence of Jesus?
Wrong . . . :Nineveh:
Exodus 25:1-9
1 And YHWH spoke unto Mosheh, saying:
2 Speak unto bnei Yisrael, that they bring Me an offering: of every one that gives it willingly with his heart shall you take My offering.
3 And this is the offering which you shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass:
4 and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat hair:
5 and ram skins dyed red, and tachash skins, and acacia wood:
6 oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense:
7 shoham stones, and stones for setting for an ephod, and for a breastplate.
8 And let them make Me a miqdash-sanctuary so that I may dwell among them:
9 according to all that I show you, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.
You either do it or you do not and this is no different from the Testimony of Yeshua who clearly teaches that every individual is a house and the same which Paul teaches how you are the miqdash-body-temple of Elohim. We are admonished to pattern our own little miqdash-chapel-temple after the pattern of the greater Mishkan-Tabernacle with all its vessels. This no doubt means that all such things are supernal in meaning. For the same reasons above, Exodus 25:8-9, HaNavi Ezekiel a son of Man writes the following:
Ezekiel 11:14-20
14 Again the Word of YHWH came unto me, saying:
15 Son of man, your brethren, even your brethren the men of your kindred and all the house of Yisrael, all of them are they unto whom the inhabitants of Yerushalem have said, "Get you far from YHWH: unto us is this erets-land given in possession!"
16 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: Although I have cast them far off among the gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the aretsot-lands, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the aretsot-lands where they shall go.
17 Therefore say, Thus says Adonai YHWH: I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the aretsot-lands where you have been scattered, and I will give you the adamah-soil of Yisrael.
18 And they shall enter therein, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof, and all the abominations thereof from that place.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim.
The new Spirit is the Testimony of Yeshua which is the Spirit of the Renewed Covenant.
Sorry for your luck but there is no such thing as a "house of the Gentiles" . . .
Is your head the Father, Daqq?
Okay friend, when you return please start over with some answers to these things which were already mentioned and which Jerry and Steko could not answer:
Modern hyper dispy futurist literalism denies the full work of Messiah at Golgotha.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Apostle Paul states in no uncertain terms that it is through Israel's fall that salvation has come to the Gentiles:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).
No, Paul does not say that, but rather your favorite English translation says that. He just said let it not be that they should have stumbled to the point of being fallen: how then do you and yours say that they are fallen? It does not say that but rather it says by their transgression:
λεγω ουν μη επταισαν ινα πεσωσιν μη γενοιτο αλλα τω αυτων παραπτωματι η σωτηρια τοις εθνεσιν εις το παραζηλωσαι αυτους
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? Let it not be so! but rather, by their sideslip-transgression, (παραπτωματι), deliverance unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy."
Thus you and like minded thinkers have this false imagery of an Israel having totally fallen while you yourselves have "taken over" for the last two thousand years. Then I suppose you will be "raptured" out of here at the end of the "Gentile age of grace" just before a pre-mid-post whatever seven more years of "the Law" and a literal physical world Armageddon tribulation against "the Jews" where a literal physical Rev 9 one third of mankind dies and the other two thirds do not repent; and then, after the entire planet is literally physically destroyed, you fully expect to come back in spiritual glorified flesh and rule over a physical world dominating global empire for a thousand Reich from Jerusalem where everyone on earth will be forced to believe exactly what you believe now. And that is supposed to be pro-Israel? :rotfl:
No.
The Jews in the world continued to be saved and became Jews of the Spirit, one people with the Gentiles of the Spirit. Eph ch 2.
Israel did not reject Christ, only the non-elect rejected Him, who had forced their way into the leadership of the nation and scattered the righteous.
It can not be true that the unbelievers of Israel were ever offered the Kingdom, as Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel (remember)and such unbelievers of Israel would not enter the Kingdom in the future, nor their descendants like them.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.(His own, only in the flesh sense, of race and nation, descendants of Abraham))
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Act 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Act 14:1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks believed.
LA
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
And what on earth would that have to do with Abel? :dizzy:
Hmmm, was Abel covered under the offering of Messiah? If so then what Yeshua says about the blood of Abel being required of that generation applies to the same fourth generation beast of every man; thus the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians, are used metaphorically and allegorically. Yeshua therefore does not actually condemn any single individual ever but rather condemns doctrines which are allegorized as if the doctrines were the people groups. That is why Yeshua says beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, the leaven of Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod. If one believes that the words of Yeshua will never pass away then who and where are the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herod or Herodians today? It is not about race, or skin tone, or place of birth; and it does not matter how one clothes the body but rather what is in the garment of the mind, (the conscience is likened to a garment). There are Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians in every people group known to mankind because it is the mindset, doctrine, pride, etc., that makes a person one or more of those three. Everything is allegory, parable, and idiom. The Pharisees wore long tassels in the borders of their garments for show. These are the tzitziot in the four quarters of the wings of the hem. Thus the Pharisees represent a leopard with four heads, (four parties of the Pharisees), and with four wings of a foul in its "curve", (the hem of the garment, also called the wings of the garment). Wind, wings, fowl, spirit, clean or unclean depending on what is in the heart.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A better translation is this one:.
"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15; WNT).
The words "cast aside" here are translated from the Greek word apobole, and a form of that word (apoballo) is translated "throwing aside" in the following verse:
"And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus" (Mk.10:50; NKJV).
A blind man named Bartimaeus was sitting and begging in Jericho when the Lord Jesus entered that city. Bartimaeus cried out, saying, "Jesus, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me" (v.48). The crowd told him to stand up because Jesus was calling him. This motivated him to "throw aside" his outer cloak which was spread out before him to collect alms and to rise and to come to the Lord.
Bartimaeus did not "cast away" his garment, but instead he cast it aside in order to facilitate his movement of rising. And the same is true in regard to the Lord and national Israel. Since they would not come to Him in faith He would temporarily cast aside Israel as his agent in order to bring the truth of God to the Gentiles by Paul.
Therefore, we can understand that the "nation of Israel" has been temporarily cast aside as the LORD's agent to bring salvation to the Gentiles. But in the future the following prophecy will be fulfilled:
"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).
Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment knows that this prophecy is not being fulfilled today!
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