Talk to the guy who tried to do something
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julie21
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I will state categorically that if he truly attempted to get water to Terri, then hewas not acting immorally...I will also state though, that he should remember the words..." I will boast in nothing but Christ Jesus". Many actions motivated out of love and desire to overcome immoral actions are not done with all of the publicity Mc Burney has achieved for himself...the Quiet Achievers are many in the Lord's works.Jefferson said:
Mr. 5020
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Come on guys, you know you don't approve with her post. Click here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19248&page=7&pp=15#
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19248&page=7&pp=15#
julie21
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:think: Now Imrahil...resort to the : dizzy: icon if you want t take it to that level...something usually attributed to those atheists amongst us on TOL, isn't it?Imrahil said:
Please show me where I said I would refute any stats you provide me with?
I merely added my own point that stats are one thing, and the path to the getting those particular stats are another thing.
You are surely not that naive to believe that every stat in an un-democratic Government system is achieved without stand-over tactics being employed in some cases?
I am truly sorry that you have got to the point where, when I ask a reasonable question of you, as I was truly interested in the figures - but hey, I'll go look for them myself- that you would reply with an 'idiotic' icon...and gee! that really hurt me!
julie21 said:
I didn't exactly say that you would refute any stats but you did say:
It simply seemed that you were saying that the stats would be unreliable. No offence taken or intendedjulie21 said:
julie21 said:
You're right, I'm not that naive. But it is historically known that Hitler came to power in a democratic system and at least for a time,. people loved him and wholeheartedly fell in line with his plans.
P.S. No need to be offended, the smilie was simply a way to convey my confusion about whether or not you actually wanted any stats.
Bottomline:
A buffoon parading around with Dixie cups announcing his intentions was not going to help Terri in any way, shape, or form.
Bellowing that you're going in and guaranteeing your arrest does nothing but attract attention, sensationalize the efforts of the protestors, and stir the pot.
Concern for the Schindlers, their wishes, and their pleas was completely ignored; the protestors were more interested in their own agenda, as opposed to the wishes of Terri's own parents.
Does anybody REALLY believe that this was anything less than a symbolic, token protest? If so, fine; but quit insisting you were serious about getting into that hospital.
The arrests, cups of water, and publicity hounds were a disgrace to Terri and her family, and I thought the way they injected themselves into this tragedy was absolutely insulting and appalling.
A buffoon parading around with Dixie cups announcing his intentions was not going to help Terri in any way, shape, or form.
Bellowing that you're going in and guaranteeing your arrest does nothing but attract attention, sensationalize the efforts of the protestors, and stir the pot.
Concern for the Schindlers, their wishes, and their pleas was completely ignored; the protestors were more interested in their own agenda, as opposed to the wishes of Terri's own parents.
Does anybody REALLY believe that this was anything less than a symbolic, token protest? If so, fine; but quit insisting you were serious about getting into that hospital.
The arrests, cups of water, and publicity hounds were a disgrace to Terri and her family, and I thought the way they injected themselves into this tragedy was absolutely insulting and appalling.
Jefferson said:
I'm not speaking for Julie21, but we're following what McBurney did in particular, so it's not a matter of being more disapproving him over judges or Repubs. Also, you'd asked earlier if what he did was immoral. No, just not serious. For the Repubs to subpoena Terry and then not follow thru was immoral. For the DCS to say they could take custody without a judge's approval and then not act was immoral. Those were immoral because they are in positions of authority and power and then didn't use it. Doug isn't in a position of authority in this matter.
granite1010 said:
True, it wasn't actually useful to Terry unless it had been a concerted effort to truly get her water. But it became more than what the Schindlers wanted, so people were right to do the things that they could do to be (or try to be) effective such as calling/writing representatives and making their presense known.
julie21
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Jefferson said:
To answer your question...which in effect Rimi has done for me...this particular thread was begun by you re McBurney, not the decisions of the nominated judges .
If you had started a thread on them specifically, as opposed to this one on McBurney and his 'action', I would have made it clear that I did not agree with their actions either.
granite, Rimi and Julile21:
I'd like your opinion on the following quote from the same show:
"When you're trying to come up with tactics and strategy it's so difficult because when the world system and our government has turned it's back on God then it's difficult to have victories when we fight these battles. But one of the principles we use here at Bob Enyart Live is when we're going to criticize people, other pro-life leaders for example, we don't criticize tactics and superficial things. We criticize principled things. Like if there's crossing-over to compromize on "thou shall not murder" that's something we'll criticize. But if we think something is - 'Well that pro-life meeting or whatever, that's a little bit lame' - well, we all have different capabilities and some of us are lame so we don't criticize tactics. So when people come because Terri Schaivo is being starved to death and some of them tried to bring her a cup of water, I wouldn't criticize them for that. As Carl Henderson said when Pat Mahoney picked up a bull-horn at that moment and told the crowd that what Doug was doing was wrong, Carl Henderson, without a bull-horn, said just as loudly to the crowd, 'It's never wrong for a righteous man to do a righteous thing.'"
I'd like your opinion on the following quote from the same show:
"When you're trying to come up with tactics and strategy it's so difficult because when the world system and our government has turned it's back on God then it's difficult to have victories when we fight these battles. But one of the principles we use here at Bob Enyart Live is when we're going to criticize people, other pro-life leaders for example, we don't criticize tactics and superficial things. We criticize principled things. Like if there's crossing-over to compromize on "thou shall not murder" that's something we'll criticize. But if we think something is - 'Well that pro-life meeting or whatever, that's a little bit lame' - well, we all have different capabilities and some of us are lame so we don't criticize tactics. So when people come because Terri Schaivo is being starved to death and some of them tried to bring her a cup of water, I wouldn't criticize them for that. As Carl Henderson said when Pat Mahoney picked up a bull-horn at that moment and told the crowd that what Doug was doing was wrong, Carl Henderson, without a bull-horn, said just as loudly to the crowd, 'It's never wrong for a righteous man to do a righteous thing.'"
julie21
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To
I choose to criticize what I feel are publicity stunts to gain air time and I also criticize things of principle...it's just I am not a supporter of Bob E so I do what I do, led by my own convictions, and thus criticize out of my own uniqueness and understanding. I concede that I am not perfect,and can make errors, but I am willing to wait and ask the One with the knowledge of all men's hearts about whether I am right or wrong in my perception of this matter.
This Mahoney guy had every right to express what he felt re the action of McBurney...we/you don't live in a Communist state, and I would assume, you are all for freedom of expression?
To fight for a victorious outcome...as in achieving the primary objective of McBurney to get water into Terri, as he tells it to the media, would not have been to walk up to a Police line and hold out a cup, saying, " I am going to get this water to Terri"...sorry! Yes, that action of his did make it difficult to achieve a victory.
...Really, in EVERY situation known to man, or just particular ones?
I choose to criticize what I feel are publicity stunts to gain air time and I also criticize things of principle...it's just I am not a supporter of Bob E so I do what I do, led by my own convictions, and thus criticize out of my own uniqueness and understanding. I concede that I am not perfect,and can make errors, but I am willing to wait and ask the One with the knowledge of all men's hearts about whether I am right or wrong in my perception of this matter.
Yes, some of us are...and I personally think that McBurney's actions were just that...and since I do not belong to the Enyart group, I can be open in my stating that I am critical of his lame act. Lame, as in not succeeding in getting to his loudly stated objective, but far from lame in getting publicity.
I agree...and the only One who knows if a man is TRULY righteous, and if an act is TRULY righteous, as there have been many things done under the auspices of being 'righteous', will judge accordingly in due time.
This Mahoney guy had every right to express what he felt re the action of McBurney...we/you don't live in a Communist state, and I would assume, you are all for freedom of expression?
Jefferson said:
Dear Jefferson,
<inhales>
Carl Henderson is correct. It is never wrong for a righteous man to do a righteous thing. Doug is righteous thru Christ Jesus alone, as are all Christians. However, he wasn't really expecting to get a cup of water to Terry by walking right up the way he did, so how righteous was that! It would've been more serious to use intrigue, a real plan of action. And that is what I've been saying. It seems like it wasn't a serious attempt, it was symbolic. It would not have been wrong to actually try to get her water even if it meant breaking the law because the law was wrong in killing her. But it was wrong to be symbolic in this case. Unlike Julie, I am a big fan of Pastor Bob. I consider him my pastor from afar and his church I call my own. However, I don't agree with everything he/they say/do. I have my own mind and think my own thoughts. And my thoughts on the matter is that there was enough symbolism going on representing Terry. Acting like he was going to get a cup of water to her, knowing full well he wasn't going to be able to, so blatantly, was symbolic and sort of self-serving. It didn't do anything for Terry and that's who this was about. It IS difficult coming up with tactics in this world that is against us, against Christ, so it doesn't help when we do things that cannot be taken seriously.
If Christians had been serious, we'd've considered situations of trickery in Scriptures to encourage us. Like 1Kings20:35-43. A prophet got himself hurt and then lied to the king as to how so he could accuse the king of a wrongdoing. Could we not have used same sort of trickery to get passed police? I'd've had no heartburn with that to help a woman being murdered, yet Doug didn't do that and that is what I disagree with. I don't criticize the woman who actually got into the building to get water to Terry (read that somewhere), because she snuck in, actually bent on getting this done! But, I don't agree with the symbolic gesture that Doug did.
Tell me: Did Doug have x-amount of people standing by to rush the building while he sidetracked the police? I don't get that in his version of events. He'd hoped people would be motivated, but didn't actually set out instructing, "OK, here's the plan . . ." <exhales>
That's not what he did. He made no announcement. Additionally his goal was to have 300 people join him. That's why he brought 300 dixie cups and 10 gallons of water with him. It's not his fault that 299 people did not join him.julie21 said:
He never announced his name, wore a name tag, etc.
I agree. Maybe you should have done such "waiting" instead of posting.
He didn't get publicity for himself, he got it for the pro-life/anti-euthanasia movement. Ask 100 people at random what was the name of the guy who got arrested outside of Terry Schaivo's hospice and I'll bet you that 99 of them will not know his name.
It takes courage to do what Doug McBurney did. I think God will reward him for his actions in heaven. I do not think God will reward people who try do discourage the courageous.
It was righteous because it caused a commotion. There should be no murder along with peace and tranquility.Rimi said:
The police took it seriously enough to arrest him and the media took it seriously enough to report it which gave the pro-life/anti-euthanasia movement much needed press coverage. Our liberal-dominated national media tries to propogandize the lie that pro-lifers make up a tiny percentage of the population fully understanding that 90% of the population never matures out of being subject to junior high schoolish peer pressure. Therefore, we should jump on any and every opportunity we have to show anyone considering adopting our view that if they do so they will not be alone. There is strength in numbers.
I would not be opposed at all to that tactic. But I'm certainly not going to criticize anyone who attempted to do anything.
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Jefferson said:
Well, I'd say that sometimes tactics and "superficial" things SHOULD be criticized, if they deserve to be. We shouldn't nitpick but if something's offensive or counterproductive, as I believe many of these protestors turned out to be, they shouldn't be tolerated.
Jefferson said:
You just made my whole case. ". . . we have to show . . . they will not be alone."
It was symbolic. It was not about actually getting water to Terry.
One more thing. Just because people there weren't getting arrested for "to show", doesn't mean there was peace. When you wrote that you slapped the face of every person praying, demonstrating. They were doing what they could without being self-serving or breaking the law for show.
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