ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Lazy afternoon

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So...you don't believe in the Deity of Christ either, huh?

Your idea of Diety is that Jesus left Heaven to become a little baby in Mary.

The Bible shows how God overshadowed Mary and the seed of David was raised up to become the man who would save the world and be the King of the coming Kingdom of God, through His overcoming as the man He is, and be given all that the Father has.

Your jesus is the RCC jesus.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The seventieth week is seven years.

The seven years are the total time of the ministry of Christ confirming the covenant .

Christ was cut off in the middle of the week and the sacrifices and oblations were ended.

Daniel speaks of the second half of the week also as does revelation.



The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the seventieth week of Daniel 9.

One needs see that the tribulation of the saints refers to the period of the 3.5 years when also certain of the saints prophecy to the nations Rev.11 (not just Israelites) and others preach the Kingdom of God to all nations also Rev.ch 14.

It is impossible that God will raise up Jews to do this work, instantly that the Church has gone up. (the saints are still here)




No, you are wrong.

Rev 14 is concerned with the preaching of the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel and those of the nations which respond to their message.

The only nation which is the apple of Gods eye are the true anointed Christians, not the churchins or the jews or any other tribes of Israel according to the flesh.





There are OT saints, BOC saints and tribulation saints. They are all saints but they are not the same saints.

Rubbish.

God never made such a distinction., other than in when they live.

and you have no way of explaining the 144000 suddenly being such a Holy and gifted people (Rev.14) immediately after your pre-trib rapture, when they must be raised up by God to become what they must be before your supposed pre-trib rapture.

Your idea defies plain common sense.




'kindreds' is Grk. 'phule' which means tribes.
'earth' is Grk. 'ge' which means land.

'The tribes of the land shall mourn/wail.'

That verse is referring to the twelve tribes of the land in fulfillment of Zech 12.

No.

ge also means the whole earth, and now you have to explain the impossible of all of the tribes of Israel being in the land of Israel before Christ has promised to gather Israel, and--

every eye will see His coming as shown---


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice that Christ returns at His second (and only) future coming to raise the saints and begin His wrath.

whereas you claim Christ returns a future two times.



Zech 12:10-14 was begun at Pentecost and is not a continuation of the verses 1-9 which refer to the second coming.

LA
 

disturbo

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Banned
Perhaps you overlooked what I said:

There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations.

Since your understanding of the tribulation involves an 'Israel', then my argument has not been with you. There are many here that think the future tribulation has nothing to do with 'Israel'. In order to believe that, one must lift all prophetic utterances about the future tribulation out of its context.

There is presently one true church which is Christ's and it is the Body of Christ.
There is a false religious system in the world today and it is growing.
It will continue right on in to the seventieth week.

You said,
"There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations."

I don't know why you insert the word either but, there is going to be great tribulation regardless. Just because Israel's portion is called Jacob's trouble doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't affected by it, and it certainly doesn't mean that all prophecy is directed only to Israel. Islamic terrorism is the main cause of tribulation in the world during tribulation.

The tribulation will not have a false church and there is no such thing as a one world religion. Islam IS the prophesied evil religion of the last days. The church will have nothing to do with the end-time evils described in prophecy other than become the recipient of its abominations. The tribulation will bring people to and closer to Christ.
 

Danoh

New member
Your idea of Diety is that Jesus left Heaven to become a little baby in Mary.

The Bible shows how God overshadowed Mary and the seed of David was raised up to become the man who would save the world and be the King of the coming Kingdom of God, through His overcoming as the man He is, and be given all that the Father has.

Your jesus is the RCC jesus.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

LA

A tiny, tip of the iceberg morsel of not even a thimble-full of a fraction of the witness of Scripture on the Deity of Christ...

What's this you deny concerning Christ?

6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. - Philp: 1.

Isaiah 44:

6. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:

7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

1 Corinthians 10:

1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 3:

11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

For, according to John 1:

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Meaning?

10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Wait; wasn't He in Heaven?

11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

49. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 8:

54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 10:

33. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 17:

4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

There is NO redemption out side of Christ as Deity!

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved," Acts 4:12.

Here, from His mouth to your stopped up ears - John 8:

23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

:bang:
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Great verses, Danoh!
LA/he/she is hard against the truth of them.
I argued these and others with him/her when I first came to this forum, to no avail.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
You said,
"There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations."

I don't know why you insert the word either but, there is going to be great tribulation regardless.

You still don't 'get' what I said.

My point is, the Tribulation is inextricably connected to prophecy concerning Daniel's people, the nation of Israel.
Many who believe in a future Tribulation, also believe that GOD has no further purpose for that people or that land.
I'm saying that they are wrong and that it is foolish to think that there is any future Tribulation at all, if one does not recognize Israel's place in it.


Just because Israel's portion is called Jacob's trouble doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't affected by it,

I've never said that the rest of the world will not be affected by it. It's clear from scripture that it will be.

and it certainly doesn't mean that all prophecy is directed only to Israel.

All prophecy concerning the Tribulation comes from Israel's prophets and is directly concerned with Israel, the holy city Jerusalem, the temple on Mt Moriah and Israel's Messiah. This affects the whole rest of the world, but Israel is at the center of it.

Islamic terrorism is the main cause of tribulation in the world during tribulation.

It very possibly could be but that is not certain.

The tribulation will not have a false church and there is no such thing as a one world religion.

Mystery Babylon is a false religious system and the worship of the image of the Beast is definitely 'religious'.

Islam IS the prophesied evil religion of the last days.

Not necessarily.

The church will have nothing to do with the end-time evils described in prophecy other than become the recipient of its abominations.

Because the Tribulation is prophecy concerning Israel and not mystery concerning the Body of Christ, the Body of Christ Church will not go through the Tribulation.


The tribulation will bring people to and closer to Christ.

Multitudes....yes!
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The "guy" who wrote that goes by the name Doug Hicks. ZacharyB is a plagiarist. If he'd written it, surely he would have said so by now.

'n liable to run afoul of th' law!

"And you can't beat th' law!"- Inspector Smoot
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
A tiny, tip of the iceberg morsel of not even a thimble-full of a fraction of the witness of Scripture on the Deity of Christ...

What's this you deny concerning Christ?

That is only the claim of those who accept the RCC trinity doctrine.

6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. - Philp: 1

To be in the form of God is to be a man.

To be equal with God can only mean Christ is man or you claim two Gods.

Isaiah 44:

6. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There is more to it, but if you read correctly, it says there is no God but the LORD (Yahveh) and the redeemer is another person (speaking of His Son)

Revelation 1:

7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Almighty is the Father of Jesus, who is in His Son.

1 Corinthians 10:

1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Christ is the NT name of the Fathers Spirit by which the Father conceived His Son and anointed His Son.

John 3:

11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Poor translation.

The Man Jesus was born through Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit.

(not translating)--

No man has seen God, nor has any man ascended into the Heaven of Heavens, but He who has come down from Heaven is the Spirit, by which the Son of man is in Heaven on earth.

For, according to John 1:

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Meaning?

10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Wait; wasn't He in Heaven?

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It was by the Fathers Word that He spoke the world into existence and for a time dwelt in it.

In order for the Father to dwell in the fallen world He required a mediator, by whom the Father was reconciling the world unto Himself, but only the Son who is a man could die.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


etc.
LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Great verses, Danoh!
LA/he/she is hard against the truth of them.
I argued these and others with him/her when I first came to this forum, to no avail.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That seems all very well except that you learnt those things from natural men and you do not even realize it.

Refer to post 90.

LA
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You guys think the Apostle Paul is the only person to reveal what you call "mystery". Nothing could be further from the truth.

(Matt 13:35 KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Can you give us some examples of what Jesus uttered that was kept secret since the foundation of the world?

Compare what is written about Jesus in Matt 13:35 with what Paul said in the following verse:

(Rom 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Both Jesus and Paul are speaking of the same mystery that was kept hidden since the foundation of the world.

However, that's not what your Dispensationalism teaches. You guys think Paul was given a different mystery that was kept secret since the foundation of the world.

You're further from the truth.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
That is only the claim of those who accept the RCC trinity doctrine.




etc.
LA

Nope, it's Bible doctrine.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The Branch, the Lord Jesus is to be called YHVH tsidkenu.
No one can be called YHVH unless they are YHVH.

Wake up!
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Nope, it's Bible doctrine.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The Branch, the Lord Jesus is to be called YHVH tsidkenu.
No one can be called YHVH unless they are YHVH.

Wake up!

I am awake.

It appears that you do not know the Lords name is in Jesus Christ.

not that Jesus Christ is Himself Yahweh.

This is why Jesus has spoken in the first person from his Father.

God was IN Christ, not Jesus is God.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Now just what name is that do you suppose?

LA
 
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