ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Nick M]

1 Thessalonians 1 (I noticed it was not covered in the OP)

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The wrath is Jacob's trouble, aka great tribulation as told in Matthew 24. Copy and paste so Z has time to think about 1 Thessalonian 1.

And now Matthew 24.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[DAN P]

There are only 2 Resurrections • t the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

Hi and will you explain Gal 1:4 ??

Gal 1:4 reads , The ONE having given Himself for our sins , so that that He might RESCUSE us from out of the PRESENT evil Age , according to the will of God , even our Father ,

#1 , RESCUE / DELIVER / EXAIREO ,means that all believers will be rescued from this evil AGE ,

#2 , This verb RESCUE is controlled by the Subjuctive Mood and tells us it can happen at any time !!

#3 , This is another verse for the Pre-tribulation DEPARTURE OF 2 Thess 2:3 as the CONTEXT OF 2 Thess 2:1-4 is talking about Christ coming for his own !!

dan p

 

[Lazy afternoon]

1 Thessalonians 1 (I noticed it was not covered in the OP)

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The wrath is Jacob's trouble, aka great tribulation as told in Matthew 24.

He skipped the key to unlocking the rest of Thessalonians. This is the work of a confidence-artist.

You seem confused between what is tribulation and what is Gods Wrath.

The trib is the time when the dragon and the beast dominate the churches .

Gods wrath follows the first resurrection at the return of Christ to/in the clouds.

Christ does not then return to Heaven.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

LA

 

[disturbo]

You are so full of yourself.

God gave something to Paul that He NEVER gave to anyone before. You reject this.

The "great tribulation" has nothing to do with the body of Christ. It is the "time of Jacob's trouble", which has to do with Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world. It is the time when God pours out His wrath on the UNBELIEF and corruption of the world. And that is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is removed FIRST. God has reconciled those that believe Him in this dispensation of His grace. Therefore WE are not His enemies, but His ambassadors. Before WAR is commenced, He will recall His ambassadors.

Did I make it onto your list of undesirables yet? If not, I'm working on it.

It's only pre-tribbers who claim that the great tribulation has nothing to do with the body of Christ.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are two Greek words most often used to describe tribulation events, and in many instances, they are used together in the same verse. The first word is diwgmos (Strong's #G1375), which occurs 10 times in the New Testament and is translated "persecution(s)" in all major English translations. This word always refers to the persecution of believers by non-believers. The second word is thlipsis (Strong's #G2347), which occurs 45 times in the New Testament and is translated "tribulation(s)," "affliction(s)," "anguish," "distress," "persecution," or "trouble." In 42 of these 45 occurrences, the word refers to the suffering believers received at the hands of non-believers. One of the other 3 refer to the sufferings of Joseph when he was sold into slavery at the hands of his brothers, another to the sufferings of people during the famine of that time, and only one refers to the suffering of those who commit evil. On this basis alone, one would seem to be on shaky ground in assuming that the tribulation is reserved only for non-believers (since it only refers to non-believers in only 2% of all verses).

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Mathew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, (G2347) such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (G2347) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If tribulation/affliction/persecution has nothing to do with the church, then why does Mark 4:17 attribute tribulation to the WORD?

Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction (G2347) or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. This passage alone thoroughly debunks pretribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[steko]

There is no future great tribulation unless it involves national Israel.

Those who anticipate a future great tribulation and disconnect it from prophecies regarding Daniel's people, Israel, have lifted the event out of its Scriptural context.

 

[glorydaz]

You seem confused between what is tribulation and what is Gods Wrath.

The trib is the time when the dragon and the beast dominate the churches .

They will never dominate the body of Christ, so what are you saying?

 

[disturbo]

More arrogant pride. K:

God gave something to Paul that He NEVER gave to anyone before. You reject this.

I can't reject something if I don't know what it is! I'm still waiting for you two illustrious pre-tribbers to explain this 'mystery' to me.

 

[disturbo]

1 Thessalonians 1 (I noticed it was not covered in the OP)

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The wrath is Jacob's trouble, aka great tribulation as told in Matthew 24.

He skipped the key to unlocking the rest of Thessalonians. This is the work of a confidence-artist.

Did you notice the context of 1Thes. 1:10? Verse 9 talks about how they "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God".

The passage has nothing to do with averting God's wrath through a rapture. The wrath mentioned in 1 Thes. 1:10 is the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a rapture.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says the word 'wrath' in 1Thes. 1:10 IS...

God's purposes in judgment, Mat 3:7; Luk 3:7; Rom 1:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 5:9; 12:19; Eph 2:3; 5:6; Col 3:6; 1Th 1:10; 5:9.

 

[Danoh]

I can't reject something if I don't know what it is! I'm still waiting for you two illustrious pre-tribbers to explain this 'mystery' to me.

We each ever need to consider also that, as in the Lord's dealing with Israel in Matt. thru John, one can still reject a thing after one is shown it.

It depends on where one thinks one is looking at a thing from, in contrast to where they are actually doing so.

Until some objective standard for determining not only the right lens, but that one is applying it; until this is on the table; round and round people will go.

Even within a same school of thought, one witnesses this type of difference in lens and its resulting differences in "understanding."

John 10:

24. Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27. He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28. Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

They will never dominate the body of Christ, so what are you saying?

She doesn't know? That's why she's her.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

MANY hearty congratulations to the Wrong Divider and to the Steko
... for you guys always seem to be on the opposite side of spiritual Truth!

Is it because you belong to Satan's minions who stand at the door
of Christian forums just waiting to diss God's spiritual Truth,
which is meant to serve as edificational instruction for God's elect?
(Is that a word?)

But, there is a great blessing to all of this here in the current thread
... we haven't (as yet) had to put up with a whole bunch of emotional
nonsense from several of our most highly esteemed female members!
Praise God.

I wondered why your Rep was so low?

 

[Danoh]

Did you notice the context of 1Thes. 1:10? Verse 9 talks about how they "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God".

The passage has nothing to do with averting God's wrath through a rapture. The wrath mentioned in 1 Thes. 1:10 is the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a rapture.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says the word 'wrath' in 1Thes. 1:10 IS...

God's purposes in judgment, Mat 3:7; Luk 3:7; Rom 1:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 5:9; 12:19; Eph 2:3; 5:6; Col 3:6; 1Th 1:10; 5:9.

Forget books "about." Try The Book

1 Samuel 15:

22. And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24. And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
25. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.
26. And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

Acts 17:

1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
5. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

1 Thessalonians 1:

8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[disturbo]

Forget books "about." Try The Book

I use Vines, Strong's Thayer's, and Wuest. (lexicon) I use the interlinear when necessary. Those books deal with the words from the original text. It's the right thing to do. How about you? Ever use those resources?

 

[Right Divider]

I can't reject something if I don't know what it is! I'm still waiting for you two illustrious pre-tribbers to explain this 'mystery' to me.

You're too full of knowledge already. If we teach you, your head will explode.

 

[Nick M]

The trib is the time when the dragon and the beast dominate the churches.

Matthew 24.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[Nick M]

The passage has nothing to do with averting God's wrath through a rapture. The wrath mentioned in 1 Thes. 1:10 is the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a rapture.

It is a letter. We (the Body, not you) are saved from the wrath to come. That is detailed in the letter. We are changed and meet him in the air in that letter. You are trying to make it say something that it doesn't.

 

[steko]

You seem confused between what is tribulation and what is Gods Wrath.

The trib is the time when the dragon and the beast dominate the churches .


LA

You are the one who is confused.
The great tribulation is the 70th week of Dan 9 and has to do with Daniel's people, Israel.

During the tribulation there is a false church, but not the Body of Christ.

Matthew 24.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Right! When the Lord Jesus refers to the abomination as spoken by the prophet Daniel and also refers to a time of trouble that is worse than before or after, then it puts the great tribulation squarely within the parameters of prophecy concerning National Israel and not the Body of Christ/mystery.

There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations.

 

[Livelystone]

You are so full of yourself.

God gave something to Paul that He NEVER gave to anyone before. You reject this.

The "great tribulation" has nothing to do with the body of Christ. It is the "time of Jacob's trouble", which has to do with Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world. It is the time when God pours out His wrath on the UNBELIEF and corruption of the world. And that is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is removed FIRST. God has reconciled those that believe Him in this dispensation of His grace. Therefore WE are not His enemies, but His ambassadors. Before WAR is commenced, He will recall His ambassadors.

This is baloney and you are way wrong

What you guys call a rapture is an event but it happens on earth and at Zion that is located in the clouds where God has appeared unto man numerous times whether it be the clouds and smoke on Mt.Sinai when the Law was given to Moses or every time Moses or any one else met with God within the veil where He appeared in the clouds of smoke that in Revelation we read represents the prayers of the saints.

This revelation was given to multiple OT prophets and is who Paul got it from because He followed the Laws of God for determining the truth

God says we are to live by every word coming from God but you continue to defy Him preferring your traditions of man that have put you on the road to destruction instead of being with Him in His green pastures

Until you throw out your satanic inspired method of aborting large sections of the Bible and become obedient to God who says for you to live by every word as in all are equal and all are written for you to become spiritual food considered clean by God despite what you say.

I already answered this bull coming from you on page two post 19 but you ignore people who do not agree with you the same way you always ignore God's Word when it does not agree with you and try to teach others more of the same spiritual abortion of God's Holy Word............ yet you guys call yourselves Christians............. go figure

 

[patrick jane]

They will never dominate the body of Christ, so what are you saying?

Revelation 13:7 KJV -

for a brief moment satan has dominance, not the boc, but dominance just the same, over saints.

 

[Danoh]

This is baloney and you are way wrong

What you guys call a rapture is an event but it happens on earth and at Zion that is located in the clouds where God has appeared unto man numerous times whether it be the clouds and smoke on Mt.Sinai when the Law was given to Moses or every time Moses or any one else met with God within the veil where He appeared in the clouds of smoke that in Revelation we read represents the prayers of the saints.

This revelation was given to multiple OT prophets and is who Paul got it from because He followed the Laws of God for determining the truth

God says we are to live by every word coming from God but you continue to defy Him preferring your traditions of man that have put you on the road to destruction instead of being with Him in His green pastures

Until you throw out your satanic inspired method of aborting large sections of the Bible and become obedient to God who says for you to live by every word as in all are equal and all are written for you to become spiritual food considered clean by God despite what you say.

I already answered this bull coming from you on page two post 19 but you ignore people who do not agree with you the same way you always ignore God's Word when it does not agree with you and try to teach others more of the same spiritual abortion of God's Holy Word............ yet you guys call yourselves Christians............. go figure

Over the weekend, I had a friend of mine say to me something very similar to what you have said in your post here.

We basically get along, as we differ in our respective understandings of things, not in our friendship, as neither of us allows that to be the case.

And we are are night and day when it comes to our understanding of Scripture.

I hold to a form of Acts 9 Dispensationalism aka Mid-Acts; whereas he holds to a form of what basically boils down to an Acts 2, Old School Pentecostal, Dispensationalism.

What I've noticed as to our difference in each our understanding of things is that he is very inconsistent in his views.

Every so often, we'll talk about these things.

He'll assert "all Scripture is for us, 2 Tim. 3:16-17" but then attempt to reason away those things I point out that 'do not apply to the Body,' of which there are many, in Scripture.

And round and round we go.

As a result, I've long since given up on the poor guy as to this kind of a thing.

Being that I am greatly fascinated by how perception works in an individual as made obvious by their words and assertions; I just focus on that, and what I might learn from it, about where I perhaps fall short in some of those kinds of things.

Might as well get something of use in some area of life.

So, you just go right ahead, and assert what you have. From me to you, it is your loss.

No offense intended, none taken.