ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[ZacharyB]

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …
at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!
Unfortunately, it would take too many pages to fully quote all of the Scripture references.

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first
Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

There are only 2 Resurrections •
But the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches 3 resurrections
John 5:28-29 … Luke 14:14 … Acts 24:15 … Daniel 12:2 ↓
• These 4 passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections, which are:
the resurrection of life for the good & just, and the resurrection of condemnation for the evil & unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12 ↓
• This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.
The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later. Now, exactly WHEN the resurrection of Christians occurs is shown below …

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ↓
• These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians
who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.
• The pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation
will be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the pre-tribulation rapture,
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
It’s impossible … because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.
However, pre-tribulation doctrine falsely teaches 3 resurrections:
2 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits
1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓
• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …
but the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that the raptured saints are the firstfruits!
Also, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The Last Day • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? … lol
John 6:39-54 ↓
• 4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on
the LAST day! How can the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) followed by a rapture … if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day?
Just how many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period, with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
• The pre-trib doctrine says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air (joined with the living Christians) before the tribulation period … unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24:21-31 above
• The pre-trib doctrine says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! But, this is absurd because:
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel”, and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Days of Noah • They were similar to the times we are in today
Matthew 24:37-44 … Luke 17:26-37 … Matthew 24:28 ↓
• In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them) … and in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” … Where were half of all these people “taken”? They were not asking where half of these people were “left”. His response was like:
“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”
Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles (vultures) circle overhead.
“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)
• Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, almost no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall upon them … and “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Most church people are not expecting danger; they are expecting to be raptured; they are very similar to those who “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”. As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away … will be taken away to destruction! But, some believers today are like Noah (and his family) who spent 120 years building the Ark. Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and great tribulation. Some today who do “know”… will remain (be “left”), while the others are “taken” to be destroyed.
• Yes, many believers do “not know” that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough … because “the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT expect” (Matthew 24:44). Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster, but many believers today do “not know” that they will soon be facing incredible Christian persecution (even unto death). Christians who refuse to take the mark of the beast will suffer: “no one may buy or sell” (Rev 13:17).

Coming upon you as a thief • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one
Revelation 3:2-3 ↓
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return. This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 ↓
• Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. This group is “all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:5). But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, exclaims: “Peace and safety!”,
and then sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape.
• Many NT verses referring to Christ’s coming as a thief refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.!
Matthew 24:43 … John 10:10 … 2 Peter 3:10 … 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 ↓
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one.
Example: In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 ↓
• The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives! And some of them will be prepared for “this Day” because they have been watching and waiting.
Some Spirit-filled teachers are saying today: Only “the overcomers” / “the remnant” will escape the terrible Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns) because they will be raptured just before it comes.
Revelation 15:16 ↓
• In this verse (and in Revelation 3:2-3) … believers are told to watch, and Christ is referred to as a thief. At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, and all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle of Armageddon, Christ says: “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord •
The Day of God’s wrath is at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation!
1 Thessalonians 5:2 … 2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• Here, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
• All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.
Matthew 24:29-31 ↓•
The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation. However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture!
2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

 

[steko]

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …
at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!
Unfortunately, it would take too many pages to fully quote all of the Scripture references.

The word 'prophetic' is key to understanding this.

According to 'prophecy', the elect of Israel will be gathered at the second coming after the tribulation.
If one believes there will be a 'great tribulation' at all, then one must understand the term in the context of 'Daniel's people'.

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first
Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

These verses concern prophecy for Israel and are not related to the mystery of the Body of Christ, which Christ revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

There are only 2 Resurrections • But the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches 3 resurrections
John 5:28-29 … Luke 14:14 … Acts 24:15 … Daniel 12:2 ↓
• These 4 passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections, which are:
the resurrection of life for the good & just, and the resurrection of condemnation for the evil & unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12 ↓
• This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.
The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later. Now, exactly WHEN the resurrection of Christians occurs is shown below …

Again, prophecy vs mystery.

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ↓
• These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians
who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.
• The pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation
will be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the pre-tribulation rapture,

Revealed to and through the Apostle Paul and no one prior.

how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

Christians/the Body of Christ are not tribulation saints.
The tribulation= Jacob's trouble. Jacob is Israel.

It’s impossible … because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.
However, pre-tribulation doctrine falsely teaches 3 resurrections:
2 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

Conflating prophecy with mystery.....again.

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits
1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓
• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …

Indeed He is.

Also, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.

Yes, 'in Christ'.

So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.

He does, indeed.

There will be Christians alive at that time.

There will be tribulation saints alive at that time.
Christians, those 'in Christ' are with Christ in heaven at that time.

But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The Apostle to the nations/gentiles does say this, indeed.

The Last Day • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? … lol
John 6:39-54 ↓
• 4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on
the LAST day! How can the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) followed by a rapture … if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day?
Just how many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period, with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
• The pre-trib doctrine says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air (joined with the living Christians) before the tribulation period … unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24:21-31 above
• The pre-trib doctrine says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! But, this is absurd because:
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel”, and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Days of Noah
• They were similar to the times we are in today
Matthew 24:37-44 … Luke 17:26-37 … Matthew 24:28 ↓
• In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them) … and in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” … Where were half of all these people “taken”? They were not asking where half of these people were “left”. His response was like:
“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”
Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles (vultures) circle overhead.
“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)
• Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, almost no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall upon them … and “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”
Most church people are not expecting danger; they are expecting to be raptured; they are very similar to those who “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”.
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away … will be taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah (and his family) who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and great tribulation.
Some today who do “know”… will remain (be “left”), while the others are “taken” to be destroyed.
• Yes, many believers do “not know” that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough … because “the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT expect” (Matthew 24:44).
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster, but many believers today do “not know” that they will soon be facing incredible Christian persecution (even unto death).
Christians who refuse to take the mark of the beast will suffer: “no one may buy or sell” (Rev 13:17).

Coming upon you as a thief • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one
Revelation 3:2-3 ↓
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return. This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 ↓
• Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. This group is “all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:5). But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, exclaims: “Peace and safety!”,
and then sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape.
• Many NT verses referring to Christ’s coming as a thief refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.!
Matthew 24:43 … John 10:10 … 2 Peter 3:10 … 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 ↓
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one.
Example: In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 ↓
• The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives! And some of them will be prepared for “this Day” because they have been watching and waiting.
Some Spirit-filled teachers are saying today: Only “the overcomers” / “the remnant” will escape the terrible Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns) because they will be raptured just before it comes.
Revelation 15:16 ↓
• In this verse (and in Revelation 3:2-3) … believers are told to watch, and Christ is referred to as a thief. At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, and all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle of Armageddon, Christ says: “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord • The Day of God’s wrath is at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation!
1 Thessalonians 5:2 … 2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• Here, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
• All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.
Matthew 24:29-31 ↓•
The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation. However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture!
2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

[/QUOTE]


I'm not going to the trouble to answer every point.
Your confusion results in your conflation of 'prophecy for Israel' with 'mystery for the Body of Christ'.

 

[Livelystone]

There is much more to the truth than either of you are realizing

All of mankind is born "in Adam" because of the unclean "spirit of man" handed down from Adam to all of us.

Because Adam was condemned unto death ,so are all those who are "in Adam" also condemned to die. For this reason Paul says "in Adam all men die"

As it says in Ro.4 God calls those as if they are even though they are not yet, however, the church as a general rule only applies this to persons who for lack of a better word have been "saved". Therefore (in the minds of man) "the saved" are called to be righteous because of the righteousness of Christ that is now in them even though they themselves have not yet overcome sin. Consequently, even though they themselves are not yet righteous, they are called to be righteous by God who will complete what He has started in us!

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

So far so good for most but there is a hitch because God is a just and unbiased God without respect to persons

Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

The same as God calls those who are not yet righteous to be righteous, God calls those who are already condemned unto death to be dead even though they are still "physically" alive. So while the unclean spirit of Adam in the unsaved keeps them alive on earth, they are already considered dead in God's eyes because "God calls things as if they are even though they are not yet......... this is the way an unbiased and just God who is no respecter of persons views both the saved and the unsaved. Period and there are no. "ifs", "ands", or, "buts" about it!!!

However, when someone who believes in Jesus and repents of their sin asks Him to be the Lord of their life and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they have been given a new Spirit from above that is not condemned unto death but unto life eternal through Christ Jesus and not of themselves......... Amen? ........ I think so!

At this time persons who have received the Holy Spirit sent unto them in the name of Jesus have passed from death unto life through having been given the seed (spirit) of eternal life from God who through Jesus has RESURRECTED THEM UNTO ETERNAL LIFE......... Amen? ........ I think so!

This has and can happen to anyone from the time of Acts 2 until an unspecified time in the future as long as it remains the "day of salvation" when through Jesus Christ they may pass from death unto life.

However ,when a person dies it is no longer the day of salvation but has become a day of judgment for both the just and the unjust

Should a person die without receiving Jesus they have then passed from a time of the "day of salvation" and have now gone into a "day of judgment". This day is called a different day than the day of salvation to be 1000 years later because in the calendar of the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Everyone dies some day, therefore, a person wakes up in the day of salvation but should they die later on that same day, the "day" they are now in has for them become a day of judgment even though it is the same day they woke up in that morning......... everyone needs to get this!

Every single person both saved and unsaved will die and stand before the Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Those who have their names in the Book of Life will have at some time in their life received eternal life through Jesus Christ....... those who have not will receive what is considered by God to be the just reward for their sins

This is only Cliff Notes but the truth is the first resurrection happens in this life and every person will go through the second resurrection after they physically die with their future disposition in the Hands of God

 

[jamie]

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits
1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓
• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …
but the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that the raptured saints are the firstfruits!

Let's say for the sake of discussion that Jesus said he would fulfill the teachings of the Law and the Prophets.

One of those teachings is that the wave sheaf of the firstfruits is to be presented to God on the day after the Sabbath during the days of unleavened bread.

Speak to the children of Israel and say to them: "When you come into the land which I give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted on your behalf, on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it."
(Leviticus 23:10-11 NKJV)​

Jesus is the first of the firstfruits, he fulfilled the wave sheaf offering.

So who are the firstfruts?

And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, seven Sabbaths shall be completed. Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath, then you shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD. You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD. (Leviticus 23:15-17 NKJV)​

Other than Jesus Christ the firstfruits are leavened (a type for sin).

 

[OCTOBER23]

ZACHARY,

NOTICE that JESUS is going to take Christians to a place in God's house ,

the NEW JERUSALEM , to a PLACE PREPARED for them.

And that PLACE PREPARED is in Revelation 3 and Rev 12 for 2 women (churches)

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

 

[tetelestai]

Conflating prophecy with mystery

You guys think the Apostle Paul is the only person to reveal what you call "mystery". Nothing could be further from the truth.

(Matt 13:35 KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Can you give us some examples of what Jesus uttered that was kept secret since the foundation of the world?

Compare what is written about Jesus in Matt 13:35 with what Paul said in the following verse:

(Rom 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Both Jesus and Paul are speaking of the same mystery that was kept hidden since the foundation of the world.

However, that's not what your Dispensationalism teaches. You guys think Paul was given a different mystery that was kept secret since the foundation of the world.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …
at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!

Are you this guy?

AMR

 

[musterion]

Are you this guy?

AMR

Either that or he ripped it off from that guy. Either way it should be treated as spam.

 

[disturbo]

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Every scripture is against pre-trib. It really is a no brainer. But people accept what I call glob theories and that's what pre-trib is. There's not even ONE verse that implies Jesus returns BEFORE tribulation anyway.

I didn't read the OP completely because I agree with the headings and main message. I do want to comment on one thing.

I consider Mathew 24 as an entire chapter of suttle clues. It is Jesus' answer to these questions.

1. When these stones would fall.
2. What would be the sign of thy coming.
3. What would be the sign of the end of the age.

The disciples were asking for signs. They are there as a chain of events or "progression of end-time events" i.e. chronological.

Mathew 24:40-42 isn't speaking about the gathering of believers in verses 30-31 toward the end of tribulation, (so that Christ can do battle without the risk of friendly fire casualties). This event comes after the rapture and is a moment of judgment. The ones that are taken are destroyed. The ones that are left are the ones that remain on earth....just like Noah's day.

It's the separation of the sheep and goats, otherwise known as the judgment of nations, which determines who will enter the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Every scripture is against pre-trib. It really is a no brainer. But people accept what I call glob theories and that's what pre-trib is. There's not even ONE verse that implies Jesus returns BEFORE tribulation anyway.

Meeting Jesus IN THE AIR is NOT His return to EARTH.

It's really a no-brainer.

Nowhere in PROPHECY will you find the CATCHING UP that God gave to Paul by REVELATION (something REVEALED).

 

[disturbo]

Meeting Jesus IN THE AIR is NOT His return to EARTH.

It's really a no-brainer.

Nowhere in PROPHECY will you find the CATCHING UP that God gave to Paul by REVELATION (something REVEALED).

In Mathew 24 Jesus said the gathering would happen after the tribulation. Paul said the man of sin must first be revealed. And few Christians can deny that there’s a rapture when the Lord returns in power and glory at Armageddon. What pre-tribbers have to prove by scripture, that there is a return and a rapture before the tribulation. They can't do it because they don't exist.

We know the gathering occurs at the sound of a trumpet of God, SPECIFICALLY THE LAST and SEVENTH TRUMPET. (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 11:15, Mt. 24:31).

The seventh trump sounds here and covers about 3 chapters....

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We know that the angels do the gathering of Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39. Mathew 24:31.)

We know that both the rapture and the resurrection is a time of reaping and harvest.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

We know that the gathering will take place in the the clouds of the sky (Mt. 24:30; 1 Thess. 4:17).

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So here is your rapture...

Revelation 14:14-16 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And Revelation 14:17-20 is the resurrection of the wicked or the tares.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice too that the angel In Rev 14:18 the angel is said to have power over fire. And this is also mentioned in Mathew 13:39-42.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Joel 3:13 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow -- For their wickedness is great."

The tribulation has a purpose. It's to purify the Church by bringing it to repentance, and to restore Israel. The rapture happens in Revelation 14 just before God's wrath is poured out so that Christians aren't the recipients of, and God is not guilty of, "friendly fire" like the plagues in chapter 15.

 

[Right Divider]

In Mathew 24 Jesus said the gathering would happen after the tribulation. Paul said the man of sin must first be revealed. And few Christians can deny that there’s a rapture when the Lord returns in power and glory at Armageddon. What pre-tribbers have to prove by scripture, that there is a return and a rapture before the tribulation. They can't do it because they don't exist.

Not the SAME REVELATION there, poor disturbed one.

You do NOT understand the revelation given to Paul. In fact, you completely ignore it.

 

[disturbo]

Not the SAME REVELATION there, poor disturbed one.

You do NOT understand the revelation given to Paul. In fact, you completely ignore it.

Maybe you can tell me the differences in those revelations.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Maybe you can tell me the differences in those revelations.

His dividing powers dont extend that far.

So that when you shake him to the core he runs to what he has always assumed are dispensational proof texts until he has consoled himself.

Meanwhile leaving truth unexplored.

 

[Right Divider]

Maybe you can tell me the differences in those revelations.

Do you understand the difference between "spoken ... since the world began" and "kept secret since the world began"?

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 16:25-26 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

 

[disturbo]

Do you understand the difference between "spoken ... since the world began" and "kept secret since the world began"?

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 16:25-26 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

That's the best you can do explaining the difference to me? That's the extent of it?

 

[Right Divider]

That's the best you can do explaining the difference to me? That's the extent of it?

If you cannot understand that, you cannot understand anything more.

Paul was given REVELATION that was kept secret SINCE the world began. So it is clearly NOT the SAME revelation that was spoken of SINCE the world began.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Do you understand the difference between "spoken ... since the world began" and "kept secret since the world began"?

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 16:25-26 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

Did I hit the nail on the head, or what? :think:

 

[Livelystone]

Meeting Jesus IN THE AIR is NOT His return to EARTH.

It's really a no-brainer.

Nowhere in PROPHECY will you find the CATCHING UP that God gave to Paul by REVELATION (something REVEALED).

Sure there is, Paul got it through his revelation of the prophecy of Zion that is in the clouds where the Lord has promised to return to and set up the tabernacle of David that is the 24 elders before the throne in Revelation.

Isaiah 31:4
For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof


Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away

Isaiah 51:11
Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Isaiah 61:3
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 62:11
Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isaiah 4:5
And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.


So shall we be with the Lord forever

PS. You should of known Jesus would not have taught us to pray for His Kingdom to come to earth if He was ever going to take us off of the earth to a kingdom up in the heavens

 

[oatmeal]

We must learn to be careful to read what is written and not read into any passage that which is not written.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


This passage does not mention a resurrection.

It is not a resurrection, however it does say the dead in Christ shall rise, but not all involved in this event are dead.

The word of God speaks precisely and absolutely truthfully on all subjects it addressed. I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is not a resurrection for not all people involved in that event are not dead