ECT Rightly Dividing MADs

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 KJV

Are these not just referring to the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ, that He gave to Paul, via revelation, in Romans-Philemon, and not the law of Moses....?[/quote]

Here is what Paul says about how the Jewish believers uphold the law:

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law" (Ro.3:28-31).​

The point I made is that 1 Thess. 4:1-7 are speaking of the commandments of God. Do you deny that they are?

And you still have not addressed what I said about Paul's words "the commandments of God" and the context in which those words are used. If Paul is not addressing those words to members of the Body then what evidence can you give that he isn't?
 

DAN P

Well-known member
He doesn't have to because it is obvious that he is speaking of the law of Moses. Just compare Romans 13:9--"love thy neighbour as thyself" with Mat.19:19--"love thy neighbour as thyself."



Hi Jerry and lets look at Rom 13:9 and there are 7 verbs , ONE IS IN THE PRESENT TENSE of Continuous action and Paul is writing to the B O C and not Jews !!

Of the 7 verbs 6 are in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , so tell us why , Jerry ??

dan p
 
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musterion

Well-known member
Hey kids, what time is it? It's time for doin' the Acts 2 Shuffle with Jerry "Two News, Jews!" Shugart and his Bible Blenders!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hey kids, what time is it? It's time for doin' the Acts 2 Shuffle with Jerry "Two News, Jews!" Shugart and his Bible Blenders!

Anyone can see that I have answered every challenge I have been given, including whatever lame point you were trying to make about the commandments of God.

Anyone can see that you have not provided even one verse which supports your silly idea that only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ but not all of them. Your whole argument hinges on the idea that only some of them were but you have not even offered one verse which gives any support to your idea.

Surely you do have such evidence, don't you?

I have evidence that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the Body of Christ were expecting that appearance. I have evidence but so far you have not even given us a hint why you think that only some of the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Anyone can see that I have answered every challenge I have been given, including whatever lame point you were trying to make about the commandments of God.

Anyone can see that you have not provided even one verse which supports your silly idea that only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ but not all of them. Your whole argument hinges on the idea that only some of them were but you have not even offered one verse which gives any support to your idea.

Surely you do have such evidence, don't you?

I have evidence that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the Body of Christ were expecting that appearance. I have evidence but so far you have not even given us a hint why you think that only some of the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body.

Everyone has expected an imminent return of Jesus. I expected it back in the early 70's. He still hasn't come.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Everyone has expected an imminent return of Jesus. I expected it back in the early 70's. He still hasn't come.

Everyone in the Body of Christ expects an imminent return of Christ, meaning that it can happen at any moment.

But His return to the earth cannot be described as being imminent because certain things must happen before He returns, such as the abomination of desolation being set up in the holy place (Mt.24:15). Thus the Lord's return to the earth cannot be described as being imminent.

So we can understand that those who originally received the Hebrew epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ because they were waiting for His imminent appearance. That can only mean that the Hebrew epistles contain doctrine for those in the Body of Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ask them. I dare you, Two News.

It is obvious that you do not want to actually discuss the subject of this thread because all you want to do is to assassinate my character by questioning my honesty!

Why don't you show us that you can actually discuss the subject of this thread in an intelligent manner because so far you have not said even one intelligent thing!
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
John is talking about how the saints will "appear." And they will not know until they "see" Him as He is. But you say that it has nothing to do with their appearance physically even though John does in fact speak of His "appearance" and them not knowing what they shall be like until they "see" Him.

Besides that, other Hebrew epistles reveal that those who received those epistles were waiting for an "imminent" appearing of the Lord Jesus and only members of the Body were waiting for that appearance.
No, he is not. 1 John 3:2 KJV has NADA to do with how we will look, physically-the context is "sinlessness," as we discussed. But, then again, kid, you are always right, and TOL is your soap box, to tell everyone this.

However, for the babes, I repost, to demonstrate on how not to approach/study the book, a book of details, as the kid Jerry does, i.e., "a few verses in isolation," ignoring to whom it is addressed, ignoring the context that precedes it.




Look up who this "Little children" is....


1 John 3:9 KJV

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 3 KJV

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


This is a cry for "sinlessness, just like the Lord had-"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"-that is the context-born again, the nation of Israel, both spiritually regenerated, and physically regenerated, in resurrected bodies, of flesh and bone, where they will walk in His ordinances, part of the blessings of the NC, not subject to the sin nature.

John "ties" "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" not with the physical attributes of the Saviour, but with His "inner" attributes-no sin..."in him is no sin"-verse 5, and hence verses 6-9:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



It has NADA to do with how they will look "outside." The context of "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" is the hope of "sinlessness," which will be realized in spiritually and physically regenerated bodies in the future-the nation Israel, on earth, in resurrected bodies, spiritually and physically regenerated, will not sin.....the blessings of the NC, made with the remnant of Israel.....not addressed to members of the boc....


Again, for the babes/sheep, to emphasize the importance of rightly dividing the word of truth, per 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV- Whom is being addressed:?

1 John 2 KJV

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


John 13:33 KJV


Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.


The writer? John, to whom the Lord Jesus Christ gave charge of His mother, per John 19:25-28 KJV.


="little children"=a term of affection, employed by the Lord Jesus Christ, including "the little flock"-Luke 12:32 KJV,...


Mt. 12 KJV

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Thus, John "takes hold," "adopts" the Lord's spiritual family, the "born again" little children....

1 Peter 1 KJV

3 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 John 2:1 KJV

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

A parent first teaches his child to "sin not."

These are not lost people, sinners, for...

...we have an advocate with the Father,...

It does not say "High Priest"-it says "advocate."

Sinners need a Saviour, a High Priest, not an advocate. The Lord Jesus Christ is only an advocate for God the Father's children, whether it be the believing remnant, the little flock, of the nation Israel, or the boc.


That being said, the context of this address is to future "tribulation" saints, "the little flock," not to members of the body of Christ, during the "Great Trib," when they will be supernaturally empowered,much like the "for taste" at Pentecost...

Hebrews 6:5 KJV

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

...., "born again," under the blessings of the New Covenant, not to sin:

1 John 3 KJV

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Survey Ez. 36 KJV...

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and [U]cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/U]28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Survey Jer. 31 KJV...

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



1 John 2

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Compare-And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,

__________

1 John 3:9 KJV

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him : and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

To whom is John speaking? The audience?

"his seed remaineth in him"

Is this "seed" the word of God? 1 Peter 1:23 KJV?

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

But 1 John 3:9 says "his seed,"i.e., referring to that person's own seed.

Details of the book matter...

Gen 17 KJV

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Details-pay attention to "first mention." This is the first mention in the book of the words "his seed," and 1 John 3:9 KJV, is the last mention. Details matter.


Some of the other verses with the words "his seed" are Jeremiah 3:9 KJV, Luke 1:55 KJV, Acts 7:6 KJV, Romans 4:13 KJV.

The normal usage of "his seed" in both the OT and NT, refer to a man's seed, as in, his sperm, or his offspring.

Arguing that "his seed" in 1 John 3:9 KJV refers to the word of God seems a "stretch"-it does not seem consistent with it's normal usage in the book.

1 John 3:9 KJV

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Any other men in the book,whose seed will remain in them?

Rev 14:3-5 KJV

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


The 144,000 during the "Great Trib"will have their seed remaining in them, for they are virgins.

Get it?

They are "without fault before the throne of God." No vile in their mouth...

This would explain 1 John 3:9 KJV.

John's epistles-aimed at Jews, who would have entered the Great Trib period, during John's time, if the nation Israel had accepted the Lord Jesus as the Messiah, the Christ.

The 2,000+ year interim period that we are in now was not seen by John.He very well could have been preparing the Jews for the tribulation, thinking it would happen very soon.

As an aside...Survey:

John 1:47 KJV

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

? I thought the Lord Jesus Christ was the only person, who was walking the earth, during the events of John 1, in whom there was no guile! No, He was speaking in His role, as the prophet, "seeing" the future believing remnant, represented by "Nate,"in the mil. k., experiencing both the physical and spiritual blessing of the NC-resurrected bodies, on earth, having the ability not to sin.

"Rightly divide" the word of truth-understand what is written to members of the boc, and what is written specifically for another audience.





I know, I know.....Let the boos begin,from the kid,Jerry, as he tells me he is always right, as "We clearly see....Why should I believe you, instead of the Sscriptures, Paul,...Sir Herman Neutic with 16 titles before and after his name says................."


Right, kid?
 
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john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Here is the way that Paul tells us that the Jewish believers uphold the law:

"For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law" (Ro.3:28-31).​




.

I did not ask that. I asked: all of God's commands?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No, he is not. 1 John 3:2 KJV has NADA to do with how we will look, physically-the context is "sinlessness," as we discussed.

In what way is it about sinlessness?:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

According to your idea John is telling them that they do not yet know that they will be sinless when they are made like Him and they will not know until they see Him as He is!

That is absurd!

John "ties" "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" not with the physical attributes of the Saviour, but with His "inner" attributes-no sin...

So they are waiting to see the Lord Jesus so that they could see if He remained sinless when He appears?:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

According to your exegesis they will not know that they will be sinless until they see the Lord Jesus to see if He is sinless! Let us look at the verse in its context:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure"
(1 Jn.3:2-3).​

That is exactly the same "hope" which Paul refers to here:

"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
(Titus 2:13).​

Same hope and same appearance of the Lord Jesus. And as I have said many times those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only the members of the Body were waiting for that appearance.

John's epistles-aimed at Jews, who would have entered the Great Trib period, during John's time, if the nation Israel had accepted the Lord Jesus as the Messiah, the Christ.

No, by the time John's epistles were written Israel had already been temporarily set aside and the present dispensation had already begun. And by this time Jews were already baptized into the Body of Christ. Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 12:13 were addressed not only to the church there but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

That means that Paul's words were addressed to all the first century believers including all the Jewish believers and here is what Paul told all of those Jews:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All of the Jews who called on the name of the Lord Jesus and not just some of them were baptized into the Body of Christ in the first century. But you think only some of them were. Where are your Scriptures which made you think only some of them were baptized into the Body?

Look up who this "Little children" is....

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake"
(1 Jn.2:12).​

The little children did not have to wait for sometime in the future to have their sins forgiven. They were already born of God as a result of their faith (1 Jn.5:1-5).

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In order to understand what is said here it is necessary to understand that John made it plain that those to whom he wrote his epistles did sin (1 Jn.1:8-10). With that in mind we can understand that John was telling them that a person who is born of God does not sin because God's seed remains in him. "God's seed" is His nature given to each believer at salvation (Jn.1:13; 2 Pet.1:4).

The point John is making is that the child partakes in the nature of his parent. So sin does not stem from the believer's regenerate nature, God's seed. And that is exactly what Paul speaks of here:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Ro.7:18-20).​
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
In what way is it about sinlessness?:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2). [/INDENT]

According to your idea John is telling them that they do not yet know that they will be sinless when they are made like Him and they will not know until they see Him as He is!

That is absurd!

I explained at length. That "absurd" clinches it.


Too much meat for you, kid. You cannot bear it. Stick with the milk.



According to your exegesis they will not know that they will be sinless until they see the Lord Jesus to see if He is sinless! Let us look at the verse in its context:

I explained at length, including the context. That "according to you" humanism clinches it.


Too much meat for you, kid. You cannot bear it. Stick with the milk.The context is sinlessness....

Jerry: I am born of God, and do not sin, but I ignored the context.


8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Survey Ez. 36 KJV...

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Jerry: This is happening now....We are in the NC!!!!!!!


Acts 2 kid....


Now, pull up your bunny shirt...time for your nap.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I explained at length. That "absurd" clinches it.

No, you didn't explain at length.

According to your ideas John was telling the believers that they will not even know whether or not they will be sinless when they put on a body like that of the Lord Jesus until they see Him to see if He remains sinless.

And of course you run and hide from the fact that John speaks of being made like Him as a "hope" and Paul also calls it the blessed hope.

And you run and hide from Paul's words where he said that all who call on the name of the Lord in ever place are baptized into the Body of Christ but you say that only some of the Jewish believers were baptizede into the Body.

And you still have not even addressed the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only the members of the Body were waiting for that appearance. James wrote the following:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

When Paul Sadler was the President of the Berean Bible Society he wrote the following:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

When are you ever going to address these facts?

You don't even try to dance around them because you just ignore them in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer to what James says about the imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus.
 
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