Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

[Shasta]

I never said the scriptures weren't inspired. I said we are not Israel.

IF the OT are "scriptures" and inspired then, according to Paul, they are profitable to use for doctrine (or was that written just for Timothy?). I am doing just that -using them to guide me on matters of doctrine. You are denying the teaching on the ground that the OT reference was not specifically addressed to us (though we were not even born yet). Neither was the application of those verses solely focused on Israel. They were a description of how God deals with nations.

Following your reasoning the Psalms cannot be referred to in matters of truth since they were not about us but about the experience of David, Asaph and Ezra and "we are not them" They were all Jews who lived in a different time and era. As for the TORAH - it was written to Israel. We are not ancient Israel. The prophets were written to a lot of people who "are not us" Perhaps you like the mid-acts dispensationalists think the Gospels were only for that mini-dispensation and that the non-Pauline writings of the NT were for the Jewish believers. When you have finished applying your method the term "inspired" is very hollow. Most of the Bible ends up being history. The OT becomes a fossil, the mere shell of something that was once living fit now only for the museum. The most liberal theologian could do no more damage to the credibility of the Word than you do.

There was not expiration date on Jeremiah 18. God was speaking about how He deals with nations in general. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that He has changed His methods and unless you can provide scriptures to that effect I am going to suppose you have taken this position because you do not like the truth revealed in Jeremiah which is a more serious problem. On the other hand perhaps it is easier for you to post quick one-liners than to offer a thoughtful answer.

We do not reject or disqualify part of the word when it does not fit into our paradigms. We adjust our paradigm to fit the scriptures. This is what all serious exegetes have done. It was the chief activity of the Reformers none of whom would venture to say anything like what you have. Evidently you do not follow their lead so much as I thought.

 

[Shasta]

You just Blasphemed the True God! See you at the Judgment!

In Proverbs 4:18 righteousness is compared to the morning sun

In Philippians 2:15 the children of God are called “blameless and pure” and are compared to shining stars in the sky.

Jesus said “Let your light shine before others that they may see your good deeds” (Matthew 5:16)

These scriptures link light to holiness, and righteousness.


Light and darkness are in opposition to each other.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed (John 3:20).

Darkness is equated with Satan who is the abject enemy of God.

...to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me' (Acts 26:18)

We are told to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness:

11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret (Ephesians 5:11).

This includes all the sins I mentioned in my previous post.

Why does God tell us all these things? It is because God Himself is light and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5) He is completely pure and holy and utterly without evil.

To cause or create anything evil is not in God's nature. Everything He created He made good and very good. His creatures became evil not because of anything God did but because they chose to serve themselves instead of Him. This is one of the most basic facts about God. If you do not understand that then it will hinder your understanding of almost every other truth. You call me blasphemous but it is you who have called evil the work of God's hands.

 

[beloved57]

In Proverbs 4:18 righteousness is compared to the morning sun

In Philippians 2:15 the children of God are called “blameless and pure” and are compared to shining stars in the sky.

Jesus said “Let your light shine before others that they may see your good deeds” (Matthew 5:16)

These scriptures link light to holiness, and righteousness.


Light and darkness are in opposition to each other.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed (John 3:20).

Darkness is equated with Satan who is the abject enemy of God.

...to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me' (Acts 26:18)

We are told to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness:

11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret (Ephesians 5:11).

This includes all the sins I mentioned in my previous post.

Why does God tell us all these things? It is because God Himself is light and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5) He is completely pure and holy and utterly without evil.

To cause or create anything evil is not in God's nature. Everything He created He made good and very good. His creatures became evil not because of anything God did but because they chose to serve themselves instead of Him. This is one of the most basic facts about God. If you do not understand that then it will hinder your understanding of almost every other truth. You call me blasphemous but it is you who have called evil the work of God's hands.

You reject the True God for one that is a figment of your darkened understanding!

 

[Robert Pate]

You reject the True God for one that is a figment of your darkened understanding!

You apparently believe that you are the only one on the Forum that is saved.

 

[beloved57]

You apparently believe that you are the only one on the Forum that is saved.

I don't believe you are saved!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Perseverance which is derived from predestination, holds that those who will ultimately make it in the end will the the ones predestined to do so. In the meantime, apostasy is possible but if you fall away you are not one of the chosen.

Er, no.

Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, the believer cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a believer has been born-again (regenerated) the believer cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the child of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The believer shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.

Moreover, the Reformed clearly understand the assurance of their re-birth.

As is stated in the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Song of Songs 5:2, 3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12, 14; Eph. 4:30, 31; Ps. 77:1-10; Matt. 26:69-72; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 88; Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15; Ps. 51:8, 12; Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9; Jer. 32:40; Isa. 54:7-10; Ps. 22:1; Ps. 88)"

From the WLC:

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

See also:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4317394#post4317394

That we can be certain (genuinely know) of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

Assurance is the necessary implication of knowledge, assent, and trust, that is, true saving faith. Answer your doubts with faith, seeking refuge in Christ, The Good Shepherd. Let your faith in the sure promises of God and what Christ accomplished fight the doubt that any may have.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

Er, no.

Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, the believer cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a believer has been born-again (regenerated) the believer cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the child of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The believer shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.

Moreover, the Reformed clearly understand the assurance of their re-birth.

As is stated in the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Song of Songs 5:2, 3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12, 14; Eph. 4:30, 31; Ps. 77:1-10; Matt. 26:69-72; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 88; Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15; Ps. 51:8, 12; Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9; Jer. 32:40; Isa. 54:7-10; Ps. 22:1; Ps. 88)"

From the WLC:

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

See also:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4317394#post4317394

That we can be certain (genuinely know) of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

Assurance is the necessary implication of knowledge, assent, and trust, that is, true saving faith. Answer your doubts with faith, seeking refuge in Christ, The Good Shepherd. Let your faith in the sure promises of God and what Christ accomplished fight the doubt that any may have.

AMR

Do you believe that those Christ lived and died for are Eternally Secured from hell before they become believers ?

 

[Bright Raven]

Do you believe that those Christ lived and died for are Eternally Secured from hell before they become believers ?

:duh:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Do you believe that those Christ lived and died for are Eternally Secured from hell before they become believers ?

From whose perspective are you asking?

From God's? Sure. After all, God knows from eternity all that happens in the time-bound world He created. He therefore knows the final destination of all His creatures.

If you are headed towards an eternal justification argument, let me save you some time. A person is not actually justified until believing. Eternal justification collapses the distinction between the decree of justification and justification itself, and also brings along a notion that faith merely realizes justification already possessed.

Such a view does not properly distinguish between the divine purpose in eternity and its execution in time, nor between the work of Christ in procuring, and that of the Holy Spirit in applying the blessings of redemption. According to this position we are justified even before we believe, though we are unconscious of it, and faith simply conveys to us the declaration of this fact. Moreover, this view claims the fact that our sins were imputed to Christ made Him personally a sinner, and the imputation of His righteousness to us makes us personally righteous, so that God can see no sin in believers at all.

Justification is one of the fruits of Christ’s redemptive work, applied to believers by the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit did not and could not apply this or any other fruit of the work of Christ from eternity.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

From whose perspective are you asking?

From God's? Sure. After all, God knows from eternity all that happens in the time-bound world He created. He therefore knows the final destination of all His creatures.

If you are headed towards an eternal justification argument, let me save you some time. A person is not actually justified until believing. Eternal justification collapses the distinction between the decree of justification and justification itself, and also brings along a notion that faith merely realizes justification already possessed.

Such a view does not properly distinguish between the divine purpose in eternity and its execution in time, nor between the work of Christ in procuring, and that of the Holy Spirit in applying the blessings of redemption. According to this position we are justified even before we believe, though we are unconscious of it, and faith simply conveys to us the declaration of this fact. Moreover, this view claims the fact that our sins were imputed to Christ made Him personally a sinner, and the imputation of His righteousness to us makes us personally righteous, so that God can see no sin in believers at all.

Justification is one of the fruits of Christ’s redemptive work, applied to believers by the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit did not and could not apply this or any other fruit of the work of Christ from eternity.

AMR

I asked you a simple question, are those Christ lived and died for eternally secured and saved from the penalty of their sins before they believe and while they are enemies ?Yes or No?

 

[Shasta]

You reject the True God for one that is a figment of your darkened understanding!

You say God created evil but a God in whom "there is no darkness at all" is incapable of creating evil.

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20)

 

[beloved57]

You say God created evil but a God in whom "there is no darkness at all" is incapable of creating evil.

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20)

You don't believe in the same God as I do! I believe in the True God and you don't!

 

[Robert Pate]

You don't believe in the same God as I do! I believe in the True God and you don't!

No, your God is a mean, cruel, tyrant.

 

[beloved57]

No, your God is a mean, cruel, tyrant.

Blasphemy against the True God!

 

[Robert Pate]

Blasphemy against the True God!

If your Calvinist God is the true God, then I would rather go to hell than to spend an eternity with such an unjust tyrant.

 

[beloved57]

If your Calvinist God is the true God, then I would rather go to hell than to spend an eternity with such an unjust tyrant.

Yes He's the True God and you keep blaspheming Him!

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes He's the True God and you keep blaspheming Him!

Nope, you have the wrong God.

The God of the Bible "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

What does your God give?

 

[beloved57]

Nope, you have the wrong God.

The God of the Bible "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son" John 3:16.

What does your God give?

You dont believe in the God of the Bible, nor do you believe Jn 3:16 !

 

[Robert Pate]

You dont believe in the God of the Bible, nor do you believe Jn 3:16 !

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

 

[beloved57]

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

What does the God of Calvinism give?

You reject the God of Jn 3:16 !