Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
NickCharles said:
I trust in Christ. I'm not sure why you are not comprehending that.
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The people that are Christians on this Forum usually don't have a religion.

Religion and the Gospel of Christ don't mix.

The minute that you add religion to the Gospel, you have perverted it.
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
Robert Pate said:
One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to teach you the truth, John 14:26.



If you don't have the truth, you may not have the Holy Spirit who is the teacher of truth.
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Since you can't defend your position with any sort of consistency, maybe it's you that does not have the truth.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
NickCharles said:
Since you can't defend your position with any sort of consistency, maybe it's you that does not have the truth.
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I have the truth. Evidence that one has the truth is that they embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ as their only means of salvation.

I am already seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
Robert Pate said:
I have the truth. Evidence that one has the truth is that they embrace the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ as their only means of salvation.



I am already seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.
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I embrace the historical gospel as proclaimed by Jesus and His apostles. And I can defend it consistently. You have shown that you cannot even explain how 1 John 2:2 and John 3:36 are not contradictory in your theology. You cannot explain how "world" means the same thing all through 1 John 2.

Let's see you do those things without insulting me, or posting something that has nothing to do with it, and we will see if what you embrace is the truth.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
NickCharles said:
I'm not the one that has to change what Paul says in Romans 9. There's no way to come to your conclusion based a straight reading of the text. I used to believe as you, so I am quite familiar with the gymnastics required to change what Paul says.

The idea of predestination and God's providence over all thing comes from scripture. I understand your need to marginalize it. But it's there. You just need to believe what is said, even if it goes against your presuppositions.
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Whether you believe Paul had Jeremiah in mind or not when he wrote Romans 9 does not detract from the fact that Jeremiah 18 is divine truth. What is written there does not come from a bible commentator or preacher but from the mouth of God. This is God’s explanation about how He deals with nations and peoples. Because of this it is perfectly acceptable to compare the truths found there to what the Bible says elsewhere on the same subject.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

It does not take any verbal “gymnastics” or sophisticated methods of interpretation to understand what is being said here, nor is it a long passage. All we need to do is visualize what the potter was doing. The meaning of that experience is given to us. The interpretation is as follows: God by His prophetic decrees determines the rise and fall of nations…but whether those nations will finally be the recipients of divine wrath or mercy depends on the choices made by the people of that nation. By changing its response to God a nation can alter its destiny. Here is both justice and mercy in balance...but it is not Calvinistic determinism.

Now I happen to believe that God foreknows what the decisions of men will be. At the same time I do not believe this hinders human freedom. This was, in fact, the unanimous opinion of the Early Church until Augustine (one of the founders of Western Catholicism) brought determinism into the Church from his Gnostic past. Calvin, we must remember, was an avid student of Augustine and quoted him some 120 times in his Institutes

It stretches the imagination to suppose that Paul, using the imagery of pottery to express the changing status of nations in God's economy did not have Jeremiah 18 in mind. The two passages are thematically, almost identical. Jeremiah 18 concerns Israel (the only godly nation around at the time) and some unnamed Gentile nation. Romans 9 is about the Gentiles and Jews of the First Century. The Jews had a long history with God and had received many promises and blessings. The Gentiles had no history with God had received no promises (Romans 9:4-5). Nevertheless, at the time Paul was writing the two seemed to have switched places. The Jews (as a nation) had rejected Jesus as Messiah and having grieved the Spirit were not getting what they had been promised (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). Instead Gentiles were being grafted in. Paul was trying to answer how God could do that when He was truthful and faithful. Jeremiah could have answered that. God can change His decrees.

I often get the impression that some Christian determinists think God is in the business of shaping people into sinners (vessels of wrath), as if the heavenly Potter’s fingers are guided by visions of murderers, pedophiles and idolators. In Jeremiah 18, the vessel’s resistance or cooperation occurs prior to their being fashioned into one shape or another. The “shape” of a vessel thus does not refers to their nature or habits of life but to the USE they are put to in the plan of God.

Romans also speaks of honorable or dishonorable use being made of the "vessels" Smashing a pot is not using it for anything nor does it bring God honor if God is responsible for making it that way.
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
Shasta said:
Whether you believe Paul had Jeremiah in mind or not when he wrote Romans 9 does not detract from the fact that Jeremiah 18 is divine truth. What is written there does not come from a bible commentator or preacher but from the mouth of God. This is God’s explanation about how He deals with nations and peoples. Because of this it is perfectly acceptable to compare the truths found there to what the Bible says elsewhere on the same subject.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

It does not take any verbal “gymnastics” or sophisticated methods of interpretation to understand what is being said here, nor is it a long passage. All we need to do is visualize what the potter was doing. The meaning of that experience is given to us. The interpretation is as follows: God by His prophetic decrees determines the rise and fall of nations…but whether those nations will finally be the recipients of divine wrath or mercy depends on the choices made by the people of that nation. By changing its response to God a nation can alter its destiny. Here is both justice and mercy in balance...but it is not Calvinistic determinism.

Now I happen to believe that God foreknows what the decisions of men will be. At the same time I do not believe this hinders human freedom. This was, in fact, the unanimous opinion of the Early Church until Augustine (one of the founders of Western Catholicism) brought determinism into the Church from his Gnostic past. Calvin, we must remember, was an avid student of Augustine and quoted him some 120 times in his Institutes

It stretches the imagination to suppose that Paul, using the imagery of pottery to express the changing status of nations in God's economy did not have Jeremiah 18 in mind. The two passages are thematically, almost identical. Jeremiah 18 concerns Israel (the only godly nation around at the time) and some unnamed Gentile nation. Romans 9 is about the Gentiles and Jews of the First Century. The Jews had a long history with God and had received many promises and blessings. The Gentiles had no history with God had received no promises (Romans 9:4-5). Nevertheless, at the time Paul was writing the two seemed to have switched places. The Jews (as a nation) had rejected Jesus as Messiah and having grieved the Spirit were not getting what they had been promised (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). Instead Gentiles were being grafted in. Paul was trying to answer how God could do that when He was truthful and faithful. Jeremiah could have answered that. God can change His decrees.

I often get the impression that some Christian determinists think God is in the business of shaping people into sinners (vessels of wrath), as if the heavenly Potter’s fingers are guided by visions of murderers, pedophiles and idolators. In Jeremiah 18, the vessel’s resistance or cooperation occurs prior to their being fashioned into one shape or another. The “shape” of a vessel thus does not refers to their nature or habits of life but to the USE they are put to in the plan of God.

Romans also speaks of honorable or dishonorable use being made of the "vessels" Smashing a pot is not using it for anything nor does it bring God honor if God is responsible for making it that way.
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Since we aren't Israel, Jeremiah isn't applicable to us.

Romans 9 is, though, as written.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
NickCharles said:
Since we aren't Israel, Jeremiah isn't applicable to us.

Romans 9 is, though, as written.
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To the Apostles the OT was the scripture, divinely inspired and profitable for doctrine. We can certainly build doctrines based upon a correct interpretation of what is written there. You are also parting from the views of John Calvin who believed along with the other Reformers in the verbal plenary inspiration of Old and New Testament writings.
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
Shasta said:
To the Apostles the OT was the scripture, divinely inspired and profitable for doctrine. We can certainly build doctrines based upon a correct interpretation of what is written there. You are also parting from the views of John Calvin who believed along with the other Reformers in the verbal plenary inspiration of Old and New Testament writings.
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I never said the scriptures weren't inspired. I said we are not Israel.
 
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