Public Education is a Terrible Idea!

Yorzhik

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I will guess by your OP that, under a completely commercialized education system, you'd also make education 100% voluntary. Right?

So how about an estimate? What percentage of citizens would end up receiving no education at all? Just take your best guess - for the sake of argument.
Essentially zero percent. What we've found is that parents that follow the unschooling method of learning are, at what would normally be the end of a government school education, about one grade behind academically. So even no school is still receiving an education. And the cool thing is these unschooled kids do much better than their public school counterparts when it comes to college and earnings when they become adults, because it turns out that there are more important things than academics when it comes to a particular person's life and also for society in general.

So the question is, why do we create this government school system which is a huge burden on society that results in dysfunctional citizens when doing nothing would produce a better result?
 

glassjester

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Essentially zero percent. What we've found is that parents that follow the unschooling method of learning are, at what would normally be the end of a government school education, about one grade behind academically. So even no school is still receiving an education. And the cool thing is these unschooled kids do much better than their public school counterparts when it comes to college and earnings when they become adults, because it turns out that there are more important things than academics when it comes to a particular person's life and also for society in general.

What is an "unschooled" child?

If you're talking about kids that are not in public school now, under current laws regarding education, then that means nothing about what would happen under a complete abolition of public education.

If you're only in favor of Clete's plan for the sake of kids that are already out of public school, then I have to ask - why? What difference would it make to them?



Clete - what percentage of children would receive no education if public education was abolished?
 

chrysostom

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Many of the arguments concerning public education have to do with religious issues.

and
you quote ayn rand
the darling of the right
who
agrees with
the darling of the left - marx
on
one particular thing

religion is the problem

so why do the opposite extremes have to get rid of religion?

with communism they were willing to kill millions just to set up their system

is religion the only thing protecting us from these people?
 

Yorzhik

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What is an "unschooled" child?
Basically the child figures what they want to learn and the parent guides them. More often than not, no money is spent on school. There is no organized curriculum. In fact there is no schedule for schooling at all.

If you're talking about kids that are not in public school now, under current laws regarding education, then that means nothing about what would happen under a complete abolition of public education.
It means precisely that if all parents of kids formerly in government school did nothing like unschooling parents did, then they would get the same result because the result is consistent.
 

aikido7

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Many of the arguments concerning public education have to do with religious issues.

The following is the single best argument I have ever heard on the topic and it is offered by an atheist and it anything but religiously based.
I invite those of you who support the public education system, atheist or otherwise to respond to it.



PUBLIC EDUCATION

SHOULD EDUCATION BE COMPULSORY AND TAX-SUPPORTED, AS IT IS TODAY?
The answer to this question becomes evident if one makes the question more concrete and specific, as follows:
Should the government be permitted to remove children forcibly from their homes, with or without the parents' consent, and subject the children to educational training and procedures of which the parents may or may not approve? Should citizens have their wealth expropriated to support an educational system which they may or may not sanction, and to pay for the education of children who are not their own? To anyone who understands and is consistently committed to the principle of individual rights, the answer is clearly: No.

There are no moral grounds whatever for the claim that education is the prerogative of the State—or for the claim that it is proper to expropriate the wealth of some men for the unearned benefit of others.

The doctrine that education should be controlled by the State is consistent with the Nazi or communist theory of government. It is not consistent with the American theory of government. The totalitarian implications of State education (preposterously described as "free education") have in part been obscured by the fact that in America, unlike Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, private schools
are legally tolerated. Such schools, however, exist not by right but only by permission.

Further, the facts remain that:
(a) most parents are effectively compelled to send their children to State schools, since they are taxed to support these schools and cannot afford to pay the additional fees required to send their children to private schools;
(b) the standards of education, controlling all schools,
are prescribed by the State;
(c) the growing trend in American education is for the government to exert wider and wider control over every aspect of education.

As an example of this last: when many parents, who objected to the pictographic method of teaching schoolchildren to read, undertook to teach their children at home by the phonetic method—a proposal was made legally to forbid parents to do so. What is the implication of this, if not that the child's mind belongs to the State?

When the State assumes financial control of education, it is logically appropriate that the State should progressively assume control of the content of education—since the State has the responsibility of judging whether or not its funds are being used "satisfactorily." But when a government enters the sphere of ideas, when it presumes to prescribe in issues concerning intellectual content, that is the death of a free society.

To quote Isabel Paterson in The God of the Machine:
"Educational texts are necessarily selective, in subject matter, language, and point of view. Where teaching is conducted by private schools, there will be a considerable variation in different schools; the parents must judge what they want their children taught, by the curriculum offered. Then each must strive for objective truth. . . . Nowhere will there be any inducement to teach the "supremacy of the state" as a compulsory philosophy. But every politically controlled educational system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy sooner or later, whether as the divine right of kings, or the "will of the people" in "democracy." Once that doctrine has been accepted, it becomes an almost superhuman task to break the stranglehold of the political power over the life of the citizen. It has had his body, property, and mind in its clutches from infancy."

The disgracefully low level of education in America today is the predictable result of a State-controlled school system. Schooling, to a marked extent, has become a status symbol and a ritual. More and more people are entering college— and fewer and fewer people are emerging properly educated. Our educational system is like a vast bureaucracy, a vast civil service, in which the trend is toward a policy of considering everything about a teacher's qualifications (such as the number of bis publications) except his teaching ability; and of considering everything about a student's qualifications (such as his "social adaptability") except his intellectual competence.
The solution is to bring the field of education into the marketplace.

There is an urgent economic need for education. When educational institutions have to compete with one another in the quality of the training they offer—when they have to compete for the value that will be attached to the diplomas they issue—educational standards will necessarily rise. When they have to compete for the services of the best teachers, the teachers who will attract the greatest number of students, then the caliber of teaching—and of teachers' salaries—will necessarily rise. (Today, the most talented teachers often abandon their profession and enter private industry, where they know their efforts will be better rewarded.) When the economic principles that have resulted in the superlative efficiency of American industry are permitted to operate in the field of education, the result will be a revolution, in the direction of unprecedented educational development and growth.

Education should be liberated from the control or intervention of government, and turned over to profit-making private enterprise, not because education is unimportant, but because education is so crucially important.

What must be challenged is the prevalent belief that education is some sort of "natural right"—in effect, a free gift of nature. There are no such free gifts. But it is in the interests of statism to foster this delusion—in order to throw a smokescreen over the issue of whose freedom must be sacrificed to pay for such "free gifts."

As a result of the fact that education has been tax-supported for such a long time, most people find it difficult to project an alternative. Yet there is nothing unique about education that distinguishes it from the many other human needs which are filled by private enterprise. If, for many years, the government had undertaken to provide all the citizens with shoes (on the grounds that shoes are an urgent necessity), and if someone were subsequently to propose that this field should be turned over to private enterprise, he would doubtless be told indignantly: "What! Do you want everyone except the rich to walk around barefoot?" But the shoe industry is doing its job with immeasurably greater competence than public education is
doing its job.

To quote Isabel Paterson once more:
"The most vindictive resentment may be expected from the pedagogic profession for any suggestion that they should be dislodged from their dictatorial position; it will be expressed mainly in epithets, such as "reactionary," at the mildest. Nevertheless, the question to put to any teacher moved to such indignation is: Do you think nobody would willingly entrust his children to you and pay you for teaching them? Why do you have to extort your fees and collect your pupils by compulsion?

Ayn Rand - JUNE 1963.​

Resting in Him,
Clete
I think she is a bit too paranoid.

Rand was the architect of the philosophy of “Objectivism” which means that human life needs to be regulated by an ethic of selfishness.

She was fervently anti-Christian and anti-religion.

I think we should learn how to learn, and public education is just one way of ensuring this will happen.

Education is a life-long task. We should leave our educational environment ready to go out into the world as curious people, inveterate readers and moral learners. That’s what learning is all about, in my view.
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
You have a God-hating bisexual as governor, what makes you think that you're safe from the secular humanist movement in Oregon?

What makes you think I think I'm safe from secular humanists in Oregon? Think, ACW, it would save you a lot of wasted words.

I just want you homeschoolers, wherever you might be, to know that just because you teach your children at home doesn't mean that you're immune from our secular humanist government.

As you're well aware the State of Oregon has guidelines for homeschooling parents to follow.

http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/results/?id=74

Don't be surprised when a government official shows up at your door and asks your child politically correct questions that, if not answered to his or her liking, would take away your right to teach your child at home.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I see that you reported me, are you afraid of debate.

You weren't debating.

I was questioning why a Christian would use as his main source an atheist to promote the homeschooling movement. Is that not a concern of yours as well?

Look to the Bible for all wisdom, not some atheist adulterer who worshipped a serial killer that dismembered a 12 year old girl.

Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman
http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html
 

aCultureWarrior

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I think she is a bit too paranoid.

Rand was the architect of the philosophy of “Objectivism” which means that human life needs to be regulated by an ethic of selfishness.

She was fervently anti-Christian and anti-religion.

According to atheist Ayn Rand, selfishness is a virtue.

What did Ayn Rand believe?

Rand, a Russian immigrant, published two widely heralded novels, The Fountainhead, (1943) and Atlas Shrugged (1957), and founded a school of philosophy she called “objectivism,” which argues that personal happiness is the moral purpose of every person’s life. This led her to reject socialism, advocate strongly for individual rights, and promote free-market capitalism as the only system that truly respects individual rights. In the tussle between egoism and altruism, Rand came out squarely for the former, even extolling what she called “the virtue of selfishness.”

The Fountainhead tells the story of architect Howard Roark, who chooses to work in obscurity rather than compromise his personal and artistic integrity. Atlas Shrugged is a more complex work that portrays a dystopian United States in which government regulation has run rampant and key industries are in the process of collapsing. It turns out that a mysterious character, John Galt, has been leading a strike of business leaders with plans to rebuild the world along objectivist lines.

Ultimately Rand’s advocacy of capitalism was grounded in the egoistic view that each person constitutes his or her own reason for being and ultimate good in life. This egoism, she believed, was the natural product of reason, which she regarded as the only standard by which moral judgments could properly be made. She branded altruism, the view that we should serve the interests of others, a moral evil founded on defective reasoning.

Similarly, Rand had no use for religion, arguing that Christianity rests on a basic contradiction. While conceding that Jesus was one of the great early advocates for the sanctity of the individual human being, she regarded his message – that people should love and help others before themselves – as fundamentally altruistic. This, she believed, is profoundly at odds with the inherent egoism of the human psyche, which naturally puts self before others. And this, she argued, is why Christians have never succeeded in putting their beliefs into practice, and a reason she could never abide Christianity.
http://theconversation.com/what-should-we-make-of-paul-ryans-fondness-for-ayn-rand-49933
 

chrysostom

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I think she is a bit too paranoid.

Rand was the architect of the philosophy of “Objectivism” which means that human life needs to be regulated by an ethic of selfishness.

She was fervently anti-Christian and anti-religion.

so was marx
and
what does that tell you?

the extreme right and left both must get rid of religion

that makes religion a good thing

right pate?
 

Clete

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I think she is a bit too paranoid.

Rand was the architect of the philosophy of “Objectivism” which means that human life needs to be regulated by an ethic of selfishness.
Have you read her books on the subject? It does not mean what it sounds like it means.

She was fervently anti-Christian and anti-religion.
Quite so! This is part of what makes her argument against public education so compelling. She is attacking the idea on rational grounds, not religious grounds. This is ground where the secularist is forced to deal with the arguments instead of just blowing them off as mindless religious beliefism. It removes from them the ability to use the "separation of church and state" argument, which they can use to good effect (whether they are right or wrong) at will against any religiously based argument.

I think we should learn how to learn, and public education is just one way of ensuring this will happen.
Except that it doesn't insure that at all! Public education doesn't even attempt to teach you how to think. It teaches you what to think.

Education is a life-long task. We should leave our educational environment ready to go out into the world as curious people, inveterate readers and moral learners. That’s what learning is all about, in my view.
I completely agree that this should be the goal of any educational institution but there's no evidence at all that the government can accomplish this better or more efficiently than the private sector could.

Further, an education isn't the only important thing that people "need". The example Rand gave was shoes. Everyone needs shoes, right? You don't want only the rich kids to have the shoes do you? Shouldn't the government get involved in making sure that everyone has access to high quality shoes?

Everyone already has access to high quality shoes, you say? Well how could that have happened without a government shoe dispensary?

The exact same line of thinking can be applied to almost anything! Health care, housing, transportation, clothing, you name it. In fact, which of those things has the government not gotten involved in? Where does it stop?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Traditio

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Many of the arguments concerning public education have to do with religious issues.

Your first source was Ayn Rand. Just saying.

At any rate, my reply:

The answer to this question becomes evident if one makes the question more concrete and specific, as follows:
Should the government be permitted to remove children forcibly from their homes, with or without the parents' consent, and subject the children to educational training and procedures of which the parents may or may not approve? Should citizens have their wealth expropriated to support an educational system which they may or may not sanction, and to pay for the education of children who are not their own? To anyone who understands and is consistently committed to the principle of individual rights, the answer is clearly: No.

Two points:

1. This is only a problem if, and I quote, you are "committed to the principle of individual rights," and this, interpreted in a way exclusive to the public interest and to the common good (as you yourself will cite later on).

If there is such a thing as a common good, as a public interest, as a political society, to which the individual is related as part to whole, then there's simply no problem.

Because at that point, the question is: "May the good of the part be subordinated to the good of the whole?" At which point the answer becomes obvious: "Of course."

2. The coercive description of the things that Ayn Rand cites is, of course, quite irrelevent to the point. Every law, as such, is coercive. The "consent" of the private individual likewise is irrelevent. Since the private citizen is related to the political society as part to whole, that which has authority over the whole has authority over the parts insofar as they are ordered to the whole.

If the part wishes to set himself against the whole, then he who has care over the whole has the authority to put the part back in line. Romans 13:4 comes to mind.

Part of being a citizen of a political society means that you don't get to pick and choose which laws you want to follow, which contributions you have a duty to make. It means submission to the legislators.

There are no moral grounds whatever for the claim that education is the prerogative of the State—or for the claim that it is proper to expropriate the wealth of some men for the unearned benefit of others.

How about justice? How about the public interest?

It is not consistent with the American theory of government.

I fully admit this. The American theory of government was founded on enlightenment principles which were unduly biased in favor of the individual, which were atomist in their very nature. The American theory of government, as such, is unlivable.

When the State assumes financial control of education, it is logically appropriate that the State should progressively assume control of the content of education—since the State has the responsibility of judging whether or not its funds are being used "satisfactorily." But when a government enters the sphere of ideas, when it presumes to prescribe in issues concerning intellectual content, that is the death of a free society.

To some extent, the State has an objective warrant to such a claim. It is of direct interest to the good of the political society that its citizens know x, y and z. What sort of things should they know? That's for the legislator to determine according to the concrete conditions of the society.

the parents must judge what they want their children taught, by the curriculum offered.

What entitles the parent to determine what the child should be taught? You'll say: "They are the child's parents, clearly." I'll answer, however, that education is not ordered simply to a familial good, but to a societal one. How the child, upon maturity, will relate himself to the political society will depend, at least in some way, on his education.

The disgracefully low level of education in America today is the predictable result of a State-controlled school system.

I went to public school. Just pointing that out.

What must be challenged is the prevalent belief that education is some sort of "natural right"—in effect, a free gift of nature.

Education is a natural right. It is objectively owed, in justice, to children by the political society (the particulars of this debt being determined according to the concrete conditions of the society in question).

At any rate, as for the rest, imagine what would happen if education were purely a private institution. Fewer people would be educated. Class inequalities would skyrocket (because the poor wouldn't be able to afford it). And the general result for society in general would be bad because fewer people would be qualified for employment. Not to mention, what would this do to the electorate?

If private citizen x has a right to vote, I expect him to have some degree of education. It's that simple.
 
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Traditio

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As to the common good post:

The author says the following: there is no such thing as a common good; there are only the goods of individuals.

Clearly, this is wrong. If there are only the goods of individuals, then you have abolished political society in general. You have abolished the notion of political authority as such. You have abolished the notion of human law as such.

If there is no such thing as a common good, and there is only my good and your good, then you have no right to tell me what to do, how to live, etc.

The individual owes it to the political society to obey the laws of the legislators.
The individual owes no such thing to another private individual.

The individual may be asked to sacrifice his life for the political society (e.g., in a draft for war).
Another private individual has no such right to demand such a thing. Your life and my life, from a purely private perspective, are incommensurable. Yours isn't worth more than mine.

The police have a right to detain passersby based on reasonable suspicion.
You have none.

A judge has the right to try, convict and sentence a criminal.
You have none.

Nor is this to identify the common good with the good of the majority. This is consequentialist claptrap.

The common good is the good of the political society, as such, as conceived apart from the good of any one or any number of its members. This means things like political justice, law, political order, etc. The very notion of a common good of a political society, as distinct from the good of its members, is literally the only thing which grounds the notion of political authority as such. Abolish that, and you've abolished the very validity of human law as such.
 

jgarden

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Of all the ideas advanced by antebellum reformers, none was more original than the principle that all American children should be educated to their full capacity at public expense. Reformers viewed education as the key to individual opportunity and the creation of an enlightened and responsible citizenry. Reformers also believed that public schooling could be an effective weapon in the fight against juvenile crime and an essential ingredient in the assimilation of immigrants ...

In the late 18th century, Thomas Jefferson popularized the idea that a democratic republic required an enlightened and educated citizenry. Early 19th century educational reformers extended these ideas and struggled to make universal public education a reality.

As a result of their efforts, the northern states were among the first jurisdictions in the world to establish tax-supported, tuition-free public schools. At the beginning of the 19th century, the United States had the world’s highest literacy rate--approximately 75 percent.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3535
- education as the key to individual opportunity and the creation of an enlightened and responsible citizenry.

- public schooling could be an effective weapon in the fight against juvenile crime

- an essential ingredient in the assimilation of immigrant

- a democratic republic required an enlightened and educated citizenry

- at the beginning of the 19th century, the United States had the world’s highest literacy rate--approximately 75 percent.

One of the advantages America held during the 19thC was a high rate of literacy. Democracy requires an informed electorate and public education integrated the children of immigrants into American society.

Ayn Rand received a public education at a state university in Russia - and then comes to America to denounce the very education system that the Founding Fathers saw as necessary for a democratic society.
 
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Nick M

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Clearly, this is wrong. If there are only the goods of individuals, then you have abolished political society in general.

No Trad. You will stand before the man. And when you do, it will not be a trial of the collective. The books will be opened and you will be judged on your works, not the works of others.

Public schools suck. Teachers and their unions are thieves. And worse, they are godless heathens that want to indoctrinate your children against God the same as the TOL foster parent does.
 

CabinetMaker

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No Trad. You will stand before the man. And when you do, it will not be a trial of the collective. The books will be opened and you will be judged on your works, not the works of others.

Public schools suck. Teachers and their unions are thieves. And worse, they are godless heathens that want to indoctrinate your children against God the same as the TOL foster parent does.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
 

brewmama

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- education as the key to individual opportunity and the creation of an enlightened and responsible citizenry.

- public schooling could be an effective weapon in the fight against juvenile crime

- an essential ingredient in the assimilation of immigrant

- a democratic republic required an enlightened and educated citizenry

- at the beginning of the 19th century, the United States had the world’s highest literacy rate--approximately 75 percent.

One of the advantages America held during the 19thC was a high rate of literacy. Democracy requires an informed electorate and public education integrated the children of immigrants into American society.

Our schools were good at the beginning of the 19th century, but I'd say that now they are failing miserably on every item you mentioned.

So now what?
 

Clete

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As to the common good post:
I'm not responding to your previous post because its arguments all hinged on your stance concerning the common good. If you're wrong here, you're wrong there.

The author says the following: there is no such thing as a common good; there are only the goods of individuals.

Clearly, this is wrong. If there are only the goods of individuals, then you have abolished political society in general. You have abolished the notion of political authority as such. You have abolished the notion of human law as such.
Saying it doesn't make it so. By what line of reasoning did you reach this conclusion? Is this just the first instinctive thought that came to mind or do you have a rational basis upon which to establish this unsupported assertion?

If there is no such thing as a common good, and there is only my good and your good, then you have no right to tell me what to do, how to live, etc.
This is not so. The rights of any individual stop where the rights of another individual start. No one has the right to anything that someone else has to produce. To acknowledge this simple fact is to acknowledge the need for the rule of law and to say otherwise is to advocate theft and or slavery or in extreme cases, anarchy.

The fact that there is no actual thing known as "the common good" is not a new idea that began with Rand. The common good is an invention of the left and it has only ever been defined to be whatever the left needs for it to be. In other words, its a non-entity on purpose! It cannot be defined and those who like the idea and understand its power would never allow its definition to be pinned down to anything firm.

The individual owes it to the political society to obey the laws of the legislators.
The individual owes no such thing to another private individual.
The political society is nothing at all but a collection of individuals!

If you lined up everyone in the society, shoulder to shoulder and could stand in front of each individual and say "I don't owe it to you to obey the law" and then move down the line to the next individual and say the same thing, you'd eventually say, "I don't owe it to you to obey the law." to the whole society.

This is what is meant by saying the the common good does not exist. Societies are only collections of individuals.

The individual may be asked to sacrifice his life for the political society (e.g., in a draft for war).
Not justly.

And make no mistake, when someone is drafted its because someone else drafted him. There is no such entity as "the political society" that goes around activating draftees. It's people, individual people.

Let me ask you a question to help illustrate the point being made here. By your logic, it was the political society that murdered six million Jews during World War II. In your view, who was responsible for the things that occurred in the Jewish concentration camps in Germany? Was it "the society" or was it the individuals who did the killing who are responsible?

Same question could be asked about race based slavery that occurred in this country. "The society" said it was okay for decades. Does that excuse the individuals who traded slaves? Or isn't it so that the society that said it was okay only said that because it was made up of those same individuals who were benefiting for the slave trade?

Another private individual has no such right to demand such a thing. Your life and my life, from a purely private perspective, are incommensurable. Yours isn't worth more than mine.
Nor is yours worth more than mine! How is that not commensurate?

Rand put YOUR point this way...

"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

The only way this can happen is to have your political society governed by the rule of law.

The police have a right to detain passersby based on reasonable suspicion.
You have none.

A judge has the right to try, convict and sentence a criminal.
You have none.
The police have the legal authority to arrest people if they have a reasonable suspicion that they have committed a crime, yes. They have that authority because the law which governs our society says so, not because the wear a badge and a gun. The same law that gives the police their authority also gives judges their authority.

In other words, the only reason I have no such authority is because I didn't choose to become a policeman or judge. There's nothing special about policemen and judges. They are all individual human beings no different than you or I.

Who makes the laws, you ask? People do! At least its people who make the laws in this country. You could argue that God makes the laws but even God counts as both a person and an individual in this context. Even if we lived in a nation where God made the laws, God still couldn't by any definition be called "the political society"! But we don't live in such a country and so that point is moot anyway. The point is that no matter where you live or under what sort of political system someone (i.e. some individual or set of individuals) has to make the laws. They don't just write themselves by magic.

Nor is this to identify the common good with the good of the majority. This is consequentialist claptrap.
Well, once again, saying it doesn't make it so.

Not that I disagree with you.

However, if the common good is a real thing and it isn't the majority, what is it?

The common good is the good of the political society, as such, as conceived apart from the good of any one or any number of its members.
By what standard?

Who decides what is "the good of the political society" especially if, as you say, it is "conceived (by whom???) apart from the good of any one or any number of its members"?

If its apart from any one or any number of its members then its apart from the good of the whole, isn't it?

This means things like political justice, law, political order, etc. The very notion of a common good of a political society, as distinct from the good of its members, is literally the only thing which grounds the notion of political authority as such.
How so? This is twice now that you've made this claim but haven't made anything that resembles an argument to support it. By what line of reasoning did you arrive at such a conclusion?

In addition to being unsupported, your claim is inherently self-contradictory as well. What is the difference between the "common good of a society" and "the good of its members"? A society is its members!

Abolish that, and you've abolished the very validity of human law as such.
Three times you make the same claim. I only single it out to point out that it is just an unsupported claim. It amounts to your (individual) opinion and as such is self-defeating.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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- education as the key to individual opportunity and the creation of an enlightened and responsible citizenry.
Wearing shoes is the key to the prevention of all sorts of foot problems and parasitic infections and are responsible for the advancement of human kind in so many countless ways that it staggers the mind.

Why shouldn't the government be involved in the production and distribution of shoes?

- public schooling could be an effective weapon in the fight against juvenile crime
As evidenced by what?

- an essential ingredient in the assimilation of immigrant
As evidenced by what? Have you been to Texas lately, senior?

- a democratic republic required an enlightened and educated citizenry
Not so. None of the founding fathers of this country went to a government school nor did any of their children.

- at the beginning of the 19th century, the United States had the world’s highest literacy rate--approximately 75 percent.
Had the school system been run by private enterprise, the number would have been much higher much sooner and at less expense and without have to steal from the rich to give to the poor.

One of the advantages America held during the 19thC was a high rate of literacy. Democracy requires an informed electorate and public education integrated the children of immigrants into American society.
Granting the point for the sake of argument, the private sector would have done the same only better, fast and cheaper.

Ayn Rand received a public education at a state university in Russia - and then comes to America to denounce the very education system that the Founding Fathers saw as necessary for a democratic society.
As though she chose to receive a public education. She got her education where she did because of where she lived not because she thought it was good idea "for her" but not for everyone else. I don't even understand what the point was of saying this in the first place. What difference does it make where she got her education? Are her arguments sound? If so then what difference does it make where she went to schools as a child? And if not then do you propose to prove them wrong by pointing out where she went to school or by making a germane counter argument?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Our schools were good at the beginning of the 19th century, but I'd say that now they are failing miserably on every item you mentioned.

This is the nature of Progressivism. It always starts out "good" (i.e. palatable) and slowly turns into the monster it has always been at heart.

Liberalism is stealing. It is theft at its core. Once this is seen, the wool is removed from one's eyes and you can no longer be tricked into thinking anything it produces is good.

So now what?
An entrenched governmental bureaucracy can hardly be removed apart from all out revolt and so the prospects for what to do now aren't good. We're quite stuck with it.

Not that there's nothing we can do. We can take our kids out of the government school if doing so is financially feasible. We can advocate for change. We can vote. Etc.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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