Public Education is a Terrible Idea!

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
In 1647, the Massachusetts Bay Colony passed a law requiring towns to establish and maintain schools, now schools are run by local school boards, with less than 10% of the school funding coming from the federal government.

Which principles were you thinking of?

Its the strings that come attached with that 10% that's a big part of the problem but regardless, government schools are a bad idea even on a local level. The unnecessary abdication of freedom is always a bad idea whether its on a federal, state, county, city or personal level.

The idea that formed this country, or at least the one central to this discussion, is the idea that you know better how to spend your money and how to raise your kids and how to run the whole of your life than the government does. The idea is that individual freedom, which is to say, individuals being responsible for themselves and for protecting their own self-interests is the surest and most effective means to achieve the goals of the entire society. Those goals being freedom, justice and peace. The idea was that you are not the property of the government but that your life and the things you produce through its expenditure (i.e. your time and talent) belongs to you BY RIGHT and that the government's role was to protect that right from all enemies both foreign and domestic. The problem we have now is that the very government that was to protect our rights has itself become an enemy.

This, by the way, was predictable. It was predictable because of the very inherent contradiction which you cite as an argument in favor of public schools. The fact that the constitution acknowledges its control over such things as tyranny but then simply shifts that power to the states rather than outright abolishing it is a glaring contradiction and proof positive that the Constitution of the United States, as great as it is, is not an inspired document.

If its wrong for the federal government to run a school system then what makes it right for a state or city government to do it? If I want to voluntarily join a group of people who are pooling their resources to form a school system then that's my prerogative but no government no matter how big or small has the right to take my money and spend it on someone else's education, or medical care, or food, or clothing, or housing, etc.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

gcthomas

New member
The idea that formed this country, or at least the one central to this discussion, is the idea that you know better how to spend your money and how to raise your kids and how to run the whole of your life than the government does.

Didn't you know that there have been state schools in the US since before there was a US, and state schooling has been in place since independence? You said that the founding principles would require no state schools, but that is obviously not the case given this evidence. But you ignored that part of my post. :idunno:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Didn't you know that there have been state schools in the US since before there was a US, and state schooling has been in place since independence? You said that the founding principles would require no state schools, but that is obviously not the case given this evidence. But you ignored that part of my post. :idunno:

We've been over this point in this thread already. Public schools in any form similar to what we have today did not exist until the mid to late 19th century.

Read the thread.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Its the strings that come attached with that 10% that's a big part of the problem but regardless, government schools are a bad idea even on a local level. The unnecessary abdication of freedom is always a bad idea whether its on a federal, state, county, city or personal level.

The idea that formed this country, or at least the one central to this discussion, is the idea that you know better how to spend your money and how to raise your kids and how to run the whole of your life than the government does. The idea is that individual freedom, which is to say, individuals being responsible for themselves and for protecting their own self-interests is the surest and most effective means to achieve the goals of the entire society. Those goals being freedom, justice and peace. The idea was that you are not the property of the government but that your life and the things you produce through its expenditure (i.e. your time and talent) belongs to you BY RIGHT and that the government's role was to protect that right from all enemies both foreign and domestic. The problem we have now is that the very government that was to protect our rights has itself become an enemy.

This, by the way, was predictable. It was predictable because of the very inherent contradiction which you cite as an argument in favor of public schools. The fact that the constitution acknowledges its control over such things as tyranny but then simply shifts that power to the states rather than outright abolishing it is a glaring contradiction and proof positive that the Constitution of the United States, as great as it is, is not an inspired document.

If its wrong for the federal government to run a school system then what makes it right for a state or city government to do it? If I want to voluntarily join a group of people who are pooling their resources to form a school system then that's my prerogative but no government no matter how big or small has the right to take my money and spend it on someone else's education, or medical care, or food, or clothing, or housing, etc.

Resting in Him,
Clete

This is one view point that strikes me as coming from a mind set that is both paranoid and selfish. Another view point acknowledges that a well educated population benefits everybody and working together as a society to educate our children is actually a good thing.
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
Clete:

My apologies:

I haven't posted here in a while.

Traditio,

I'm still trying to get a firm grip on just what you're arguing here.

Let me ask you some rhetorical questions that might clarify things for me.

Do you agree that shoes benefit society? If not, why not?

In the sense in which I am arguing? Maybe. Does it somehow contribute to the good of the society to have a shoed citizenry [in an analogous way to that in which it contributes to the good of a human being to be healthy]?

I don't know. That's a prudential determination. Note, I'm not making a utilitarian argument.

If so, wouldn't everyone having shoes benefit society? If not, why not?

Maybe.

If so, would you support a government shoe program where private shoe providers are replaced with government sanctioned shoe providers that provide shoes for everyone? If not, why not?

That really depends. That requires a determination of prudence on the part of the rulers. If it were deemed that it is better for the political society to have a shoed citizenry than not, then it well might be the case, depending on the circumstances, that the State should produce shoes for the citizenry (as opposed to leaving it in the hands of private industry).

What would those circumstances look like? I don't know.

Is it just, in your view, to steal your neighbor's shoes if you need them?

If I legitimately need those shoes, and my neighbor does not, then it well could be the case that it wouldn't be theft at all. Those shoes belong to me in those circumstances. For example: if I have to go some place where it would be extremely dangerous for me to go barefooted, and I have no other means to acquire shoes, and if it would otherwise be wholly unreasonable for my neighbor, if I asked him to use the shoes, to say "no," and it is quite impossible for me either to forgo the journey or else directly acquire the consent of my neighbor?

Those shoes, in justice, are mine. I can take them.

Universal destination of goods.

That said, I should, of course, return the shoes whenever I am able to do so. But note, this question is quite independent of the rights of the State.

If there where no government schools, would it be just for you to steal from your neighbor in order to finance your children's education?

I have no idea. I'm inclined to doubt it.

If it is not just for you to do it, why, in your view, is it just for the government to do it for you?

Because I am only a private citizen who have care only over my own private good. The State has care of the whole community and over the common good, of which our own private goods are only parts. My left hand has no authority over my right hand. But I have authority over both my left hand and my right hand.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Clete:

My apologies:

I haven't posted here in a while.



In the sense in which I am arguing? Maybe. Does it somehow contribute to the good of the society to have a shoed citizenry [in an analogous way to that in which it contributes to the good of a human being to be healthy]?

I don't know. That's a prudential determination. Note, I'm not making a utilitarian argument.



Maybe.



That really depends. That requires a determination of prudence on the part of the rulers. If it were deemed that it is better for the political society to have a shoed citizenry than not, then it well might be the case, depending on the circumstances, that the State should produce shoes for the citizenry (as opposed to leaving it in the hands of private industry).

What would those circumstances look like? I don't know.



If I legitimately need those shoes, and my neighbor does not, then it well could be the case that it wouldn't be theft at all. Those shoes belong to me in those circumstances. For example: if I have to go some place where it would be extremely dangerous for me to go barefooted, and I have no other means to acquire shoes, and if it would otherwise be wholly unreasonable for my neighbor, if I asked him to use the shoes, to say "no," and it is quite impossible for me either to forgo the journey or else directly acquire the consent of my neighbor?

Those shoes, in justice, are mine. I can take them.

Universal destination of goods.

That said, I should, of course, return the shoes whenever I am able to do so. But note, this question is quite independent of the rights of the State.



I have no idea. I'm inclined to doubt it.



Because I am only a private citizen who have care only over my own private good. The State has care of the whole community and over the common good, of which our own private goods are only parts. My left hand has no authority over my right hand. But I have authority over both my left hand and my right hand.
Well this is a first. I've never found anyone who suggested that shoes, and by extension any good or service at all, could conceivably be justly declared a public good and that therefore every man, woman and child has a right to what someone else has to produce.

This is quite amazing. You should understand that this is quite completely antithetical to what America is (even now) and certainly the opposite of what America was established to be. America has always been, from the Jamestown Colony onward, about private property.

But what America is or is not isn't really the point. My argument has to do with justice; a concept America abandoned so long ago that it has forgotten what it even looks like.

It seems that you too are unfamiliar with the principles of justice. I have a very difficult time knowing just how to respond to someone who is capable of suggesting that someone else's property is theirs by right based on their need and their need alone. You go through some effort to suggest that another man's stuff is only yours by right if all other avenues aside from theft have been exhausted and the need is very great but what you need to understand is that there is no fundamental difference between you and the common thief who cracks car windows to steal iphones or between you and the thug who steals your life for his own convenience.

All the while you, being a Catholic, are Pro-Life, yes? And likely you're apposed to the death penalty for what you believe are similar reasons. The reason being that you hold life, human life, to be sacred. You believe that it is wrong, categorically, to take a human life for any reason.

If you're thinking that I've changed the subject, its because you don't understand what justice is and that private property rights are the foundation of any right to life and therefore to any right at all. In fact, the right to own and to dispose of the property that you have earned is the right to life because in order to have earned it you'll have to lived your life. That is you'll have had to apply your time and your effort, which is what life is, in order to have produced it. Thus to steal a man's property is to rob him of the portion of his life that he expended to earn that property. Ayn Rand put it this way...

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values. - Ayn Rand​

And...

"Just as man can’t exist without his body, so no rights can exist without the right to translate one’s rights into reality—to think, to work and to keep the results—which means: the right of property. The modern mystics of muscle who offer you the fraudulent alternative of “human rights” versus “property rights,” as if one could exist without the other, are making a last, grotesque attempt to revive the doctrine of soul versus body. Only a ghost can exist without material property; only a slave can work with no right to the product of his effort. The doctrine that “human rights” are superior to “property rights” simply means that some human beings have the right to make property out of others; since the competent have nothing to gain from the incompetent, it means the right of the incompetent to own their betters and to use them as productive cattle. Whoever regards this as human and right, has no right to the title of “human.”

The source of property rights is the law of causality. All property and all forms of wealth are produced by man’s mind and labor. As you cannot have effects without causes, so you cannot have wealth without its source: without intelligence. You cannot force intelligence to work: those who’re able to think, will not work under compulsion; those who will, won’t produce much more than the price of the whip needed to keep them enslaved. You cannot obtain the products of a mind except on the owner’s terms, by trade and by volitional consent. Any other policy of men toward man’s property is the policy of criminals, no matter what their numbers. Criminals are savages who play it short-range and starve when their prey runs out—just as you’re starving today, you who believed that crime could be “practical” if your government decreed that robbery was legal and resistance to robbery illegal." - Ayn Rand​

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

TIPlatypus

New member
Ignoring the way students are taught in state schools (sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's good), public schools are a very efficient and centralised way of letting everyone have an education. If you do not like the way students are taught then several options still remain.
1) Move to another country. If you don't like the laws, you should leave.
2) Teach your children yourself. Of course this takes time and you are not paid.
3) Send your children to a private school. This is expensive.
4) Pay for a tutor. This is also expensive.
5) Campaign to make public schools better.

Of course, you could always vote someone in who will abolish public schools, but you would be alone so this is not possible. However you will still pay tax so if you do not want to pay for other's schooling, then you should leave. You are a citizen of your country, so you pay tax.
 

kiwimacahau

Well-known member
Well this is a first. I've never found anyone who suggested that shoes, and by extension any good or service at all, could conceivably be justly declared a public good and that therefore every man, woman and child has a right to what someone else has to produce.

This is quite amazing. You should understand that this is quite completely antithetical to what America is (even now) and certainly the opposite of what America was established to be. America has always been, from the Jamestown Colony onward, about private property.

But what America is or is not isn't really the point. My argument has to do with justice; a concept America abandoned so long ago that it has forgotten what it even looks like.

It seems that you too are unfamiliar with the principles of justice. I have a very difficult time knowing just how to respond to someone who is capable of suggesting that someone else's property is theirs by right based on their need and their need alone. You go through some effort to suggest that another man's stuff is only yours by right if all other avenues aside from theft have been exhausted and the need is very great but what you need to understand is that there is no fundamental difference between you and the common thief who cracks car windows to steal iphones or between you and the thug who steals your life for his own convenience.

All the while you, being a Catholic, are Pro-Life, yes? And likely you're apposed to the death penalty for what you believe are similar reasons. The reason being that you hold life, human life, to be sacred. You believe that it is wrong, categorically, to take a human life for any reason.

If you're thinking that I've changed the subject, its because you don't understand what justice is and that private property rights are the foundation of any right to life and therefore to any right at all. In fact, the right to own and to dispose of the property that you have earned is the right to life because in order to have earned it you'll have to lived your life. That is you'll have had to apply your time and your effort, which is what life is, in order to have produced it. Thus to steal a man's property is to rob him of the portion of his life that he expended to earn that property. Ayn Rand put it this way...

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values. - Ayn Rand​

And...

"Just as man can’t exist without his body, so no rights can exist without the right to translate one’s rights into reality—to think, to work and to keep the results—which means: the right of property. The modern mystics of muscle who offer you the fraudulent alternative of “human rights” versus “property rights,” as if one could exist without the other, are making a last, grotesque attempt to revive the doctrine of soul versus body. Only a ghost can exist without material property; only a slave can work with no right to the product of his effort. The doctrine that “human rights” are superior to “property rights” simply means that some human beings have the right to make property out of others; since the competent have nothing to gain from the incompetent, it means the right of the incompetent to own their betters and to use them as productive cattle. Whoever regards this as human and right, has no right to the title of “human.”

The source of property rights is the law of causality. All property and all forms of wealth are produced by man’s mind and labor. As you cannot have effects without causes, so you cannot have wealth without its source: without intelligence. You cannot force intelligence to work: those who’re able to think, will not work under compulsion; those who will, won’t produce much more than the price of the whip needed to keep them enslaved. You cannot obtain the products of a mind except on the owner’s terms, by trade and by volitional consent. Any other policy of men toward man’s property is the policy of criminals, no matter what their numbers. Criminals are savages who play it short-range and starve when their prey runs out—just as you’re starving today, you who believed that crime could be “practical” if your government decreed that robbery was legal and resistance to robbery illegal." - Ayn Rand​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Ayn Rand was quite wrong.
 
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