program

[Town Heretic]

no and that is what the argument was about
she agreed she would be dating catholics if she identified herself as one
she really resented my suggestion that she would have better luck with catholics
that is what she refused to accept

:think: Okay, I can understand what you're thinking there...but would she have better luck if she's feeling aggressively less Catholic?

Our nonsense aside for the moment, are you at least a little concerned that your focus might drive her into a more aggressively different posture, the way some girls date the guy their fathers wouldn't choose?

I suspect that if she's more who you think she is at the core, that at some point in her experiencing things outside of that mindset it will dawn on her that people who are "liberated" from that tradition aren't actually more enlightened or better, are prone to the same sort of foibles and foolishness and that there's something to be said for a commonality of experience that can, in its own way, compete with the thrill of the other/different.

I think that's your real best hope, in any event.

 

[chrysostom]

What's "properly" mean to you? How much is enough?

it is easier to say what isn't enough when it comes to identifying your religious position and this is the fault of tol

christian
other

are totally unacceptable

protestant

is just a little better

mad should have its own category especially since they dominate tol

catholic, muslim, orthodox, calvinist, baptist, luthern are examples of being clearly identified

 

[Town Heretic]

it is easier to say what isn't enough when it comes to identifying your religious position and this is the fault of tol

christian
other

are totally unacceptable

Christian other always makes me wonder what they mean. Christian does seem to say enough to me, but I appreciate your setting it out.

protestant

is just a little better

I don't see that as being any more illuminating than Christian. Or I find both clear enough. I don't think Catholic necessarily tells me much more, if it's particularity of doctrinal distinction that you're angling for.

I mean (and this isn't a shot) you identify as Catholic and believe in at least one very unorthodox, heretical notion within that context. So the next guy says Baptist. What does he mean by it? What does he accept about its traditions and what does he reject and how much do we need to know and to what end?

mad should have its own category especially since they dominate tol

It's an interesting Biblical context. Do you see open/closed view as something that should be evidenced as well?

Maybe a particular check list with explanations...because I suspect a great many people wouldn't know what you mean by some of them. I wonder how complex most people's theological context actually is, what they could set out for themselves absent a reference chart from whatever denomination/camp they identify with.

:idunno:

 

[chrysostom]

Our nonsense aside for the moment, are you at least a little concerned that your focus might drive her into a more aggressively different posture, the way some girls date the guy their fathers wouldn't choose?

this is not my daughter
and
she brought this subject up looking for some kind of suggestion from me
she has had experiences with protestant religions and she has even more contempt for them
no matter who she dates, her catholic background will not be hidden or ignored

 

[zoo22]

Duh?

lain:

That is what the question is for and you can use it to achieve your end goal.

No Chrysostom. The question was to let people know what religion a person currently believed in.

Now our argument was not about whether or not she was Catholic.

Are you sure about that?

My point was that she would have a better chance connecting with Catholics, regardless of who was actually practicing their religion.

Why?

Whether that's even true or not for someone depends on so many things. For some people, the opposite could very well be true. Different people people are raised in the same faith in all different kinds of ways, and people respond to it in all different kinds of ways. Either way, it's no reason to lie on the questionnaire, unless someone specifically wanted to date Catholics even though they weren't Catholic themselves, and it doesn't sound like this person did.

The question meant what religion do you practice?

How about a person who was raised Catholic, but as an adult has converted to Buddhism... Should they put Catholic as their religion?

 

[chrysostom]

Do you see open/closed view as something that should be evidenced as well?

later on I think I will add that as a subset along with others like

osas
creationist
pre millenialist
post millenialist
reincarnation
pantheist
etc

and see who would like to identify with them

 

[chrysostom]

:
How about a person who was raised Catholic, but as an adult has converted to Buddhism... Should they put Catholic as their religion?

it depends on who they want to date
and
they should already know which group they are the most compatible with

each question is to be used by you to help determine who or what kind of person you will be fixed up with

 

[zoo22]

it depends on who they want to date
and
they should already know which group they are the most compatible with

each question is to be used by you to help determine who or what kind of person you will be fixed up with

Okay. I wish her the best of luck. If she takes your advice, she'll need it.

 

[Town Heretic]

this is not my daughter

I understood that, which was why I said the way some girls do.

and
she brought this subject up looking for some kind of suggestion from me

Maybe she wanted to argue. Or maybe she thought you were unorthodox enough that she could discuss it differently. :idunno:

she has had experiences with protestant religions and she has even more contempt for them

I didn't say anything about Protestant religions. More tells me something though. Is she identifying as an agnostic? An atheist? I think she'll find those without faith aren't going to be liberated from their own orthodoxy, even if it's being unorthodox.

And maybe that will be a good thing for her.

no matter who she dates, her catholic background will not be hidden or ignored

I don't know what that means to you, honestly.

I take it by this that you aren't concerned about driving her further afield. I don't know. You're in a better position to gauge that. I hope you get it right and have as positive an impact as can be made, understanding you're not in a position to determine, only influence.

 

[freelight]

labels can get 'sticky'.........

labels can get 'sticky'.........

it is easier to say what isn't enough when it comes to identifying your religious position and this is the fault of tol

As shared before, I offered some suggestions to broaden the 'religious affiliation' options in one's profile to Knight, and he created "Other" as a kind of generic umbrella category for everything 'else'. "Other" does cover any catagories NOT listed, obviously, and one can discover what that one believes or his religious school of thought via discussion. 'Labels' don't always convey a perfect description as some liberties and diverse viewpoints may exist within any given tradition, but they help if used knowingly.

christian
other are totally unacceptable

Years ago I did identify under this banner. Its fine as it is, showing that one considers themselves to be a follower of 'Christ' but does not consider himself under any of the other labels of kinds of 'Christian' provided. I found it suitable at the time, since I'm more of a mystical, eclectic, metaphysical 'christian', not limited to any 'denomination', inclusive of all and transcending all.

protestant

is just a little better

Careful, some might 'protest' that

mad should have its own category especially since they dominate tol

I don't think this ought be an option as a 'religious affiliation', since its a sub-set doctrinal belief within Christianity.

catholic, muslim, orthodox, calvinist, baptist, luthern are examples of being clearly identified

Yes, but all that is provided under the umbrella of Christianity is -

- Christian
- Christian (Other)
- Catholic
- Protestant Christian
- (and a few other heterodox Christian groups - LDS, Jehovah Witness)

The labels 'catholic' and 'protestant' cover most Christian denominations, without getting into specific sects within Protestantism, let alone Orthodox groups who might still associate as 'catholic' still in orientation and doctrine. Where differentiations exist within any given category, a sub-group or individual may differ in some particulars of doctrine but still identify with the base-tradition.
Labels can help, but also confuse,...unless properly explained.

Also, I've proposed the category of 'Unitarian-Universalist' and may do so again, as this venue covers a broad, eclectic and universal range of religious dispositions or pluralism, very all-inclusive, but respecting individual paths and philosophical interests. I could easily choose this 'catagory' rather than 'Other', since it does provide a somewhat more definitive description of my 'vision'.

But also know that as a student of non-duality (Advaita) I can easily drop all labels, concepts and identities....and just BE. The mind can adopt a quagmire of intellectual concepts and denominations and be none the more enlightened for it, and quite often more con-fused thereby - unless one can discern properly and recognize things intelligently, discerning what is real from what is not. But this is a more ancient tradition from the great Hindu rishis (seers/sages), the true path of 'yoga' (union with Spirit). From the Advaita Vedanta perspective....one's true nature is 'God' (Brahman) and not any body-mind apparatus or complex. The 'mind' assumes various identities, personalities, assumptions, denominations, concepts, beliefs, opinions, etc. But what I AM is not that. I Am prior to all concepts.




pj

 

[chrysostom]

with freelight the jury is still out and will always be
most of us do not have time to listen to maybe this but don't forget that
I only need two words to let someone know where I am coming from
conservative catholic
I know you can spend hours defining each word
but
for those who use the dictionary it is possible to get right to the point of discussion
those who shun labels are lazy and refuse to commit to a body of knowledge
most won't even take the time to find out what various religions teach
when I was teaching religion I wrote a 15 minute play which covered all the major religions
any high school student should be aware of all of them but are not
most tol posters are not
all they know is we worship idols

 

[chrysostom]

ten·et [ten-it; British also tee-nit] Show IPA
noun
any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement.
-
Synonyms: opinion, view, sentiment, feeling, belief, conviction, persuasion
-
I am looking for the right word to describe an unusual belief not necessarily associated with any major religion

opinion
belief
tenet
view
principle
doctrine
dogma

what other words should I consider?
which one would you use?

it would be used to describe certain beliefs that many would not deem critical

 

[rainee]

ten·et [ten-it; British also tee-nit] Show IPA
noun
any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement.
-
Synonyms: opinion, view, sentiment, feeling, belief, conviction, persuasion
-
I am looking for the right word to describe an unusual belief not necessarily associated with any major religion

opinion
belief
tenet
view
principle
doctrine
dogma

what other words should I consider?
which one would you use?

it would be used to describe certain beliefs that many would not deem critical

Unconventional
counterculturist
bohemian
deviant
dissenting
heretical
renegade
schismatic
maverick
apostate


How about any of those - or for certain people here - all of them? One could make a sentence using all of them maybe?

 

[rainee]

ps maybe gullible and /or beguiled should be added?

 

[Town Heretic]

with freelight the jury is still out and will always be most of us do not have time to listen to maybe this but don't forget that I only need two words to let someone know where I am coming from conservative catholic

Except that's not entirely true. I'd never think "conservative Catholic" would include something as unorthodox as reincarnation, by way of. And if that's true for you what else isn't the thing I'd expect? No way of knowing. No way of knowing any of that from a label.

Labels are usually more like points of assumptive beginning. We find out what that means in the actual and particular over time.

those who shun labels are lazy and refuse to commit to a body of knowledge

Rather, many a Christian is less interested in the dogmatic stamp of some particular denomination than you and lazy has nothing to do with it.

most won't even take the time to find out what various religions teach

I suspect that's true. Is it necessary?

when I was teaching religion I wrote a 15 minute play which covered all the major religions

Well, if you were qualified to teach religion I'd expect that shouldn't be difficult, right?

any high school student should be aware of all of them but are not

Why should a high school student necessarily be familiar with all of them?

most tol posters are not

:idunno: When I was a kid I loved mythology and shelled out allowance to buy an encyclopedia on it, but some kids love soccer. Go figure.

all they know is we worship idols

Well, there are idols and there are idols.

 

[freelight]

words.....................

words.....................

with freelight the jury is still out and will always be
most of us do not have time to listen to maybe this

The 'jury' will always be out so to speak on all matters of relative knowledge which is conditional, limited and finite knowledge. As long as there is room for learning, research and expanding consciousness on any given subject....there is progressive revelation and greater information-potential.

but don't forget that
I only need two words to let someone know where I am coming from
conservative catholic

Even that 'label' needs further clarification, as it might be only applied to a conservative moral-respect context, but if you hold other unorthodox views other conservative catholics may not see you as part of the fold so to speak. As a tradition-base in general, it could be a good 'descript' of your general affiliation.

I know you can spend hours defining each word
but
for those who use the dictionary it is possible to get right to the point of discussion

Dictionaries are wonderful, and note they provide as many various definitions and info. on a particular word that are possible. There is more than one way to 'define'

those who shun labels are lazy and refuse to commit to a body of knowledge

Oh dear. Not necessarily. Some might be lazy and content to be ignorant, while others who have a greater universal transcendental knowledge may recognize the trivial application of labels and their limitations or that some may be 'stuck' on labels and not see the forest for the trees. We have to use words of course, - its how we use, define and appropriate such. Enter: explanations.

most won't even take the time to find out what various religions teach

This is unfortunate, since a basic study or education in 'comparative religions' has its value, especially for those engaging in a discussion forum where 'Religion' is the largest and busiest category. Hello?

when I was teaching religion I wrote a 15 minute play which covered all the major religions

Awesome.

most tol posters are not
all they know is we worship idols

The ignorance of some protestants goes without saying, among other anti-Catholic sentiments. They need to get over it.

I'm catholic (univesalist) at heart, most essentially...and agree with many sentiments within Orthodox Christianity, but do not necessarily accept all their dogmas or religious terms and conclusions. The Perennial Tradition recognizes the ultimate truth or wisdom at the heart of most of the world's religious traditions, and hence I'm more of a perrenialist (or you can slap on 'theosophist' as well), enjoying ventures in whatever religious current or philosophical school has my interest at any given time....since all truth or information originates from One Common Source. 'God' is One.

Also note that words can become 'idols' by which we attach false or unnecessary importance. There is nothing wrong with using idols, images or icons (murti) as an accessory to our worship of the divine. Catholics and Hindus use such, although there are some differences in approach and affection.

Language is relative, as well as interpretation/translation...since its being translated thru various mediums subject to distortion.




pj

 

[zoo22]

why? do think it would be a sin?
is it really misrepresenting yourself if you were raised catholic?
of course not because you are letting them know where you are coming from

Since this is about programming we've encountered as we were raised, and "where we're coming from," we ought to label people here by race. That definitely has a lot to do with the way a child is brought up, and programming.

Also, we probably ought to label folks by their parent's sins. That sort of programming can be subtle but very powerful in making us who we are, and will let people know "where we're coming from."

Anyone here with an alcoholic parent? Check the checkbox. Beaten or molested as a child? How severely? Have you gotten counseling for it? Just trying to find the proper labels. Where you're coming from. Were your parents divorced? Did your dad have a stash of porn in his closet? Please 'fess up. I mean, there's a big difference between a Catholic family upbringing and a Catholic family upbringing where your dad beat your mom everyday after church. So please check the checkbox. This way, we'll much better understand one another.

 

[chrysostom]

happy to see everyone having fun here
but
let's take a close look at the last two posters
freelight can't get enough knowledge
but
you won't see him nailing anything down
whenever he finds something new and exciting
he throws away anything that might get in the way of it

zoo doesn't want to know anything
but
gets his kicks out of mocking those who think they know
and
he works real hard at that
if he worked that hard on building his own body of knowledge
he might experience some peace of mind
you know the kind we pretend to have

 

[Town Heretic]

happy to see everyone having fun here
but let's take a close look at the last two posters

In a happy sort of way?

freelight can't get enough knowledge
but
you won't see him nailing anything down
whenever he finds something new and exciting
he throws away anything that might get in the way of it

You really think so?

zoo doesn't want to know anything
but
gets his kicks out of mocking those who think they know

You really believe that?

and
he works real hard at that
if he worked that hard on building his own body of knowledge
he might experience some peace of mind
you know the kind we pretend to have

That didn't seem very happy. :nono:

Let me know when you get to that part. :thumb:

 

[chrysostom]

Why should a high school student necessarily be familiar with all of them?

only if you think religion is a very important part of your life

most think it is
but
there I go again siding with the majority