Pope Francis extends Catholic priests' right to forgive abortion - $199.95

Catholic Crusader

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Not to mention that the frequency of sexual abuse by Catholic priests was lower than that among school teachers, many other religious groups, families, and the general public.

It shouldn't happen at all. And those responsible and involved deserve the full punishment coming to them. But where's the witch-hunt among each of those other groups - for which the rate of sexual abuse is even higher?

Thank you. You are one of the few people I have met who know those stats. Statistically, priests on average are better men than non-priests. But, this subject is a handy tool for ant-Catholic hatemongers to spew their devil's venom.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Got any statistics because somehow I find that hard to believe

The most common sexual abuser is a family member, a father or uncle, or a neighbor or friend. The percentage of priests who have committed such acts is far below the percentage of the population as a whole.

Furthermore, the vast vast majority of sexual misconduct among priests was with teenage boys. That is not pedophelia, because pedophelia medically speaking is an attraction to prepubescent children. What this was was a rash of homosexual activity. Still bad, but not the same.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned

H
ere you people go, since you want to argue the subject in the politics section:


Forgiveness of Sins

Source: LINK
Used with permission
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.

Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).

For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its.aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8).

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)


The Commission

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

This power was understood as coming from God: "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18). Indeed, confirms Paul, "So we are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).

Some say that any power given to the apostles died with them. Not so. Some powers must have, such as the ability to write Scripture. But the powers necessary to maintain the Church as a living, spiritual society had to be passed down from generation to generation. If they ceased, the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction. Christ ordered the apostles to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." It would take much time. And he promised them assistance: "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matt. 28:19–20).

If the disciples believed that Christ instituted the power to sacramentally forgive sins in his stead, we would expect the apostles’ successors—the bishops—and Christians of later years to act as though such power was legitimately and habitually exercised. If, on the other hand, the sacramental forgiveness of sins was what Fundamentalists term it, an "invention," and if it was something foisted upon the young Church by ecclesiastical or political leaders, we’d expect to find records of protest. In fact, in early Christian writings we find no sign of protests concerning sacramental forgiveness of sins. Quite the contrary. We find confessing to a priest was accepted as part of the original deposit of faith handed down from the apostles.


Lots of Gumption

Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, claims "auricular confession to a priest instead of to God" was instituted in 1215 at the Fourth Lateran Council. This is an extreme example, even for a committed anti-Catholic. Few people have the gumption to place the "invention" of confession so late, since there is so much early Christian writing—a good portion of it one thousand or more years before that council—that refers to the practice of confession as something already long-established.

Actually, the Fourth Lateran Council did discuss confession. To combat the lax morals of the time, the council regulated the already-existing duty to confess one’s sins by saying that Catholics should confess any mortal sins at least once a year. To issue an official decree about how frequently a sacrament must be celebrated is hardly the same as "inventing" that sacrament.

The earliest Christian writings, such as the first-century Didache, are indefinite on the procedure for confession to be used in the forgiveness of sins, but a verbal confession is listed as part of the Church’s requirement by the time of Irenaeus (A.D. 180). He wrote that the disciples of the Gnostic heretic Marcus "have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing themselves from the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22).

The sacrament of penance is clearly in use, for Irenaeus speaks of making an outward confession (versus remaining silent) upon which the hope of eternal life hangs, but it is not yet clear from Irenaeus just how, or to whom, confession is to be made. Is it privately, to the priest, or before the whole congregation, with the priest presiding? The one thing we can say for sure is that the sacrament is understood by Irenaeus as having originated in the infant Church.

Later writers, such as Origen (241), Cyprian (251), and Aphraates (337), are clear in saying confession is to be made to a priest. (In their writings the whole process of penance is termedexomologesis, which means confession—the confession was seen as the main part of the sacrament.) Cyprian writes that the forgiveness of sins can take place only "through the priests." Ambrose says "this right is given to priests only." Pope Leo I says absolution can be obtained only through the prayers of the priests. These utterances are not taken as novel, but as reminders of accepted belief. We have no record of anyone objecting, of anyone claiming these men were pushing an "invention." (See the Catholic Answers tract Confession for full quotes from the early Church Fathers on the sacrament of penance.)


Confession Implied

Note that the power Christ gave the apostles was twofold: to forgive sins or to hold them bound, which means to retain them unforgiven. Several things follow from this. First, the apostles could not know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive unless they were first told the sins by the sinner. This implies confession. Second, their authority was not merely to proclaim that God had already forgiven sins or that he would forgive sins if there were proper repentance.

Such interpretations don’t account for the distinction between forgiving and retaining—nor do they account for the importance given to the utterance in John 20:21–23. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all (past and future) upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained."

Furthermore, if at conversion we were forgiven all sins, past, present, and future, it would make no sense for Christ to require us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors," which he explained is required because "if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matt. 6:12–15).

If forgiveness really can be partial—not a once-for-all thing—how is one to tell which sins have been forgiven, which not, in the absence of a priestly decision? You can’t very well rely on your own gut feelings. No, the biblical passages make sense only if the apostles and their successors were given a real authority.

Still, some people are not convinced. One is Paul Juris, a former priest, now a Fundamentalist, who has written a pamphlet on this subject. The pamphlet is widely distributed by organizations opposed to Catholicism. The cover describes the work as "a study of John 20:23, a much misunderstood and misused portion of Scripture pertaining to the forgiveness of sins." Juris mentions "two main schools of thought," the Catholic and the Fundamentalist positions.

He correctly notes that "among Christians, it is generally agreed that regular confession of one’s sins is obviously necessary to remain in good relationship with God. So the issue is not whether we should or should not confess our sins. Rather, the real issue is, How does God say that our sins are forgiven or retained?"


Verse Slinging

This sounds fine, on the surface, but this apparently reasonable approach masks what really happens next. Juris engages in verse slinging, listing as many verses as he can find that refer to God forgiving sins, in hopes that the sheer mass of verses will settle the question. But none of the verses he lists specifically interprets John 20:23, and none contradicts the Catholic interpretation.

For instance, he cites verses like these: "Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38–39); "And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned’" (Mark 16:15–16).

Juris says that verses like these demonstrate that "all that was left for the disciples to do was to ‘go’ and ‘proclaim’ this wonderful good news (the gospel) to all men. As they proclaimed this good news of the gospel, those who believed the gospel, their sins would be forgiven. Those who rejected (did not believe) the gospel, their sins would be retained." Juris does nothing more than show that the Bible says God will forgive sins and that it is through Jesus that our sins are forgiven—things no one doubts. He does not remotely prove that John 20:23 is equivalent to a command to "go" and to "preach," merely that going and preaching are part of God’s plan for saving people. He also sidesteps the evident problems in the Fundamentalist interpretation.

The passage says nothing about preaching the good news. Instead, Jesus is telling the apostles that they have been empowered to do something. He does not say, "When God forgives men’s sins, they are forgiven." He uses the second person plural: "you." And he talks about the apostles forgiving, not preaching. When he refers to retaining sins, he uses the same form: "When you hold them bound, they are held bound."

The best Juris can do is assert that John 20:23 means the apostles were given authority only to proclaim the forgiveness of sins—but asserting this is not proving it.

His is a technique that often works because many readers believe that the Fundamentalist interpretation has been proven true. After all, if you propose to interpret one verse and accomplish that by listing irrelevant verses that refer to something other than the specific point in controversy, lazy readers will conclude that you have marshalled an impressive array of evidence. All they have to do is count the citations. Here’s one for the Catholics, they say, looking at John 20:21–23, but ten or twenty for the Fundamentalists. The Fundamentalists must be right!


The Advantages

Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

During his lifetime Christ sent out his followers to do his work. Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make God’s forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the sacrament of penance, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Ok then, it's mock a Catholic Priest time ...

What's the point?
Does it make you into a better person?

Since I don't rape little boys? Uh, yeah.

Not to mention that the frequency of sexual abuse by Catholic priests was lower than that among school teachers, many other religious groups, families, and the general public.

It shouldn't happen at all. And those responsible and involved deserve the full punishment coming to them. But where's the witch-hunt among each of those other groups - for which the rate of sexual abuse is even higher?

I just love watching you Catholics go into full defense mode "But but but, other institutions rape little boys too!".

Your church not only purposely put homosexuals into the priesthood, they covered it up when they found out that homosexuals do what homosexual do so well:

Molest children.

Database of Publicly Accused Priests in the United States
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
 

glassjester

Well-known member
I'll check those out. Thank you. I doubt is they go into the real nature of the abuse though, nobody will.

There's just no factual basis for assuming Catholic priests are sexual abusers.
Sick individuals love to talk about it (I don't know why), but ask them for any facts that back up their prejudice, and they come up empty every time.
 

Tambora

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I don't think school teachers that have abused children ever relied on the authorities of the school system to help them cover it up.
They were fired and turned over to the police, not moved and hid.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
There's just no factual basis for assuming Catholic priests are sexual abusers.
Sick individuals love to talk about it (I don't know why), but ask them for any facts that back up their prejudice, and they come up empty every time.
Yes, but I am referring to the few who did do bad things. Almost all of them had nothing to do with pedophelia.

I don't think school teachers that have abused children ever relied on the authorities of the school system to help them cover it up.
They were fired and turned over to the police, not moved and hid.
You as a conservative, like me, know how the news media totally perverts and twists the facts to attack our side, yes? I would suggest to you that they have done the same on this issue, and you should not be so quick to accept these things at face value. The liberal media HATES the Catholic Church more than they hate a million Trumps.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
You as a conservative, like me, know how the news media totally perverts and twists the facts to attack our side, yes? I would suggest to you that they have done the same on this issue, and you should not be so quick to accept these things at face value. The liberal media HATES the Catholic Church more than they hate a million Trumps.

People don't want to read that the school system is plagued with sex abuse.
But they love to have a reason to hate the Catholic Church.

Whatever makes for the best headlines, right?
 

aCultureWarrior

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Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Since I don't rape little boys? Uh, yeah.

I'll be more specific. Does mocking people make you into a better person?

Oh but glassjester, I'm not mocking people, I'm mocking the barbarians in your Catholic Church that didn't have the decency to ordain God-fearing men into the priesthood and then when they discovered what those sick degenerates did to children, they covered it up.

Do you know what is just as bad if not worse than a child molester?

A 3rd party who covers that molestation up.


Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

I just love watching you Catholics go into full defense mode "But but but, other institutions rape little boys too!".

Do you have any fact-based reasons to believe sexual abuse is a specifically Catholic problem, as opposed to a human problem?

It's disproportionately a homosexual problem. Your church, as has been told in numerous books, purposely ordained homosexual priests, and ta da...look what happened.

goodbye_good_men_15.jpg

http://www.torchofthefaith.com/e107_images/newspost_images/goodbye_good_men_15.jpg

510S8O1u4eL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510S8O1u4eL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Keep in mind that the above two books (and there are more) were written by Catholics.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Nope.
But the RCC had a specific problem of covering it up.
That's a black stain of shame on the RCC that they are going to have to live with.

You've said twice now that the Catholic Church, specifically, covers up sex abuse - and you said that you don't think schools do.

I'll ask again (and I've provided 3 links for you), do you have any reason to believe that?
 
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