amen
Please help me with what the Deity of Christ means
- Thread starter Jacob
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amen
Nope.
Read the rest of the verses in that chapter.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
He is claiming that He is this "I AM" here...
Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
This Being here...
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
Which is why He said that "before Abraham WAS, I AM."
Or as John the Baptizer had put that...
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he WAS BEFORE me.
Which is why we then read...
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Why did they take up stones to cast at Him?
Because He was claiming He was the God of Abraham - Israel's "I AM."
The same thing happened here...
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
You see this here...
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
That is this here...
Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
In John 8, He has just declared that if a man keeps His saying, that man shall never taste of death.
And that Abraham had rejoiced to see His day.
And that before Abraham WAS, I AM.
He is declaring He IS Israel's "I AM" - the God of Abraham.
Which is why they then tried to stone Him.
Note what Abraham had believed about resurrection...
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Abraham had rejoiced to see the day when HIS GOD - the God of Israel - their "I AM" would one day resurrect them.
And Christ is claiming HE IS THAT - "I AM" that Abraham had believed would one day resurrect them - "Accounting that GOD was able to raise him up, even from the dead."
Now, either Christ was confused...or you are.
Nevertheless, Jacob, Romans 5:8 towards you.
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In passages like those in John chapter 8, Christ is claiming HE IS Israel's "I AM" - the God of Abraham, that Abraham had believed would one day resurrect them - "Accounting that GOD was able to raise him up, even from the dead."
Now, either Christ was confused...or you are.
Nevertheless, Jacob, Romans 5:8 towards you.
Shalom.
I do not believe what you are telling me.
I believe all the Scripture. I do not accept your interpretation. It is informative, however.
Shalom.
Jacob
No - you do not believe what all those passages are telling you.
Christ is claiming HE IS Israel's - "I AM" - the God of Abraham, that Abraham had believed would one day resurrect them - "Accounting that GOD was able to raise him up, even from the dead."
Now, either Christ was confused...or you are.
Nevertheless, Jacob, Romans 5:8 towards you.
The Deity of God is a little bit redundant. But the Deity of the Father tells a story. What about whether or not Christ has Deity or is Deity?
The Deity of Christ may have to do with the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is not the Father. Neither is He the Holy Spirit. But is Colossians 2:9 (see Colossians 1:19-20) dealing with the Holy Spirit and Jesus, if Jesus is fully God, or something else?
Shalom.
Jacob
The Deity of Christ may have to do with the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is not the Father. Neither is He the Holy Spirit. But is Colossians 2:9 (see Colossians 1:19-20) dealing with the Holy Spirit and Jesus, if Jesus is fully God, or something else?
Shalom.
Jacob
jaybird
New member
why is so much emphasis put on the deity of Jesus? how exactly would one follow in His footsteps when He is divine and you are not?
Jesus is always telling people to follow Him and do what He does, He Mostly refers to Himself as son of man and only a few times Son of the Most High. i dont see Jesus anywhere teaching that it is the upmost importance that one believe He is the Most High. the important thing to believe was He was the Christ. it would be more than 400 years later that the church made it so important, it became such a big deal they would kill you if you didnt accept it. neither Jesus nor the 12 ever persecuted anyone if they didnt accept their teaching. and i dont remember Israel ever doing this either.
Jesus is always telling people to follow Him and do what He does, He Mostly refers to Himself as son of man and only a few times Son of the Most High. i dont see Jesus anywhere teaching that it is the upmost importance that one believe He is the Most High. the important thing to believe was He was the Christ. it would be more than 400 years later that the church made it so important, it became such a big deal they would kill you if you didnt accept it. neither Jesus nor the 12 ever persecuted anyone if they didnt accept their teaching. and i dont remember Israel ever doing this either.
Must be why Christ so often claims, asserts, implies, expects His hearers to know, not hope, not wonder, but know and or believe...that He is Devine.
Nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards ya.
You have some good thoughts.
I am a Jew, of Israel, as a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation. I accept the Bible. I accept Scripture. I accept Yeshua as the Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ.
I can say that I believe the words Deity and Divine to be different words that have historically been used in different ways. I am not an expert in this.
Shalom.
Jacob
Jacob,
You keep on saying that Jesus is deity. That means He is divine. That means He is God for only God is divine.
Now, since only God can forgive sins, how could Jesus forgive sins? Now, don't tell me you don't know. Explain your position as to how Jesus isn't God yet had the power on earth to forgive sins. Line up your scripture and back up your words. You keep on saying you believe scripture, but at the same time rejecting it. Then you say you just reject what someone else says about scripture without even attempting to show why they are wrong or why and how you read the scripture differently.
Jesus is either God, or He is a blasphener who lied about having the power on earth to forgive sins. There is no middle ground.
I've read where you say Jesus has forgiven your sins. How did He do that since you don't believe He is God? Again, show your position from scripture, don't just say you don't know. Why? You are either believing a liar who only claims to forgive sin but does not have that power, or He is in reality God and can forgive sin.
The above two verses are a prophecy of Jesus. Now if you don't believe it is so, show what the scripture means to you. No more, just I don't believe it, with no reasons why and no showing how the scripture means something else.
jaybird
New member
what does divine mean to you?
Shalom.
I believe my sins are forgiven because God's Word the Bible says that they are. I do not need to proof text this. It is part of the reason that people need to read the Bible for themselves. I have been studying the Bible since I was a child. I am 37 years old. Even in my time at Bible School, we studied the Bible but I am not trained to answer with proof texts. I used to answer with proof texts. But even better I answered with one right verse for the situation. However, on this subject I can see that asking questions and probing deeper into answers is better than giving a wrong answer. But the questions have to be asked or I do not learn. I do not know how to answer you about deity and divine. I see these as distinctly separate words. As for the soul of one who answers about Jesus' Deity, only to be shot down, I do not know all that went into the answer but I do know there would be consequences in affirming the answer. Your request of me is difficult. On this website I have had the entire field from only answering with Scripture, to using my own words without Scripture. This was difficult because of the Scripture that I had memorized, studied, read, and remembered using computer software generating answers and word studies. I presently am using a phone with my finger for all of my answers, replies, and threads. I can use Google to find Bible verses, but the view, or a view, that I disagree with has been presented. This has to do with people's minds, and so time and letting God work with people is tantamount. A simple truth cannot be shot down. But something deeply ingrained takes time and level headed thinking, revealing simple truths. Proving it may not be the method, even though a thing, though I do not know what, can be proven. Please give me a break on this. I know Scripture. It may be better to exposit an answer, something that I have no training in, than proof text. But, though, to provide more than one verse may be beneficial.
Where should I, you, or we, start? Would you like to provide an answer? To something in the thread already stated, said, or asked?
Your contribution to my life has thus far been invaluable. Thank you.
Shalom.
Jacob
jaybird
New member
what faith were you before?
i always thought of deity and divine to be the same but im not always right. i dont think divine always means the Most High.
When I hear The Most High God, I do not think that there are other gods. I think we are talking about God here. The words Deity and divine have been used differently throughout time.
I was a Christian. I was a Gentile. I was one and not the other or both.
Shalom.
Jacob
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
As you say read it all, if you focus on one verse like verse 3 then it will cloud your perception but if you look at other verses then you get a clearer understanding, such as:
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made youe known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”