"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[Lazy afternoon]

You are right. The inner thoughts are as important as what we do. I too have known people that have fallen. Some were even ministers of the Word. The Bible says: "Let anyone that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." When I say I would never do something I am not saying it is impossible I am expressing my intention never to go that way.

Pride is a dangerous thing for a believer to harbor. We need Him and it is when we know the flesh is weak that we depend on Him the most. When Peter bragged that he would never deny Christ he thought he could meet the challenge in his own strength but it was a spiritual battle that he could have only prepared for by prayer.

The principle of strength out of weakness comes from Paul but it is basic to the principle of the cross. I am not speaking here about the historic work of the cross for our salvation. I am speaking about the work of the cross that should be going on inside us daily. This is a truth Paul came to understand before the others. At least he wrote about it. The redemption, the new covenant, the forgiveness of sin was in prophecy but the exchanged life was an extension of the truth of the cross based on our identification with His death.

12 So then, brethren, WE are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for IF you are living according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:12-14)

These verses will, hopefully, convey what I am trying to communicate.

First he says brethren so we know he is talking to Christians

Next he says we are under obligation. Some people think there are no obligations or imperatives in our walk but there are and this is one of them. An obligation is a responsibility we can either take up or ignore.

IF we are living according to the flesh we will die. The "if" is a conditional. If it was not possible for Christians to live according to the flesh Paul would not have needed to say this to them.

In order to live above the flesh Paul says we have to be led by the Spirit (walk in Him). Through His power we are enabled to transcend the flesh and be like Christ. But I believe we are conformed to the image of Christ progressively (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Only Christ's life in us can produce the image of Christ. This work is blocked when we put confidence in our own ability to be like him (Philippians 3:3). I do not see how anyone could argue that God does not want us to obey. Of course he does but even that we must do through Him.

I learnt the same teachings.

LA

 

[Bright Raven]

Most Christians claim to be saved. This is belief stems from "OSAS" doctrine.

It is prideful and boastful. And it is not of Jesus.

Jesus is the authority to judge who will be saved or not, not anyone else.

Jesus does have that authority.

John 10:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

 

[meshak]

Jesus is the Lord, self assurance is not of Jesus.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I see you still reject the gospel.

I accept the words of Christ to Nicodemus that he must be born again.

However you believe you were born with the Holy Spirit in you and that salvation is in realizing it.

You also say I am a demon and have a demon for questioning your salvation.

You also believe Homosexuality is not a sin if the partners love each other.

False. Someone born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-10. If you sin, you are a sinner. Believe the gospel and you will be set free from the bondage of sin.

One must know the truth from Christ in order to be set free from sin.

Clearly you do not know the truth.

If you had confessed your sin then you would have been forgiven.

LA

 

[elohiym]

Jesus' standard is perfection. So you claim you are perfect?

Whoever lives by the golden rule is perfect in the sense that Jesus meant. See Matthew 7:12.

 

[elohiym]

I accept the words of Christ to Nicodemus that he must be born again.

But like Nicodemus you don't understand His words.

However you believe you were born with the Holy Spirit in you and that salvation is in realizing it.

It is written, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

You also say I am a demon and have a demon for questioning your salvation.

Yes. It's obvious.

You also believe Homosexuality is not a sin if the partners love each other.

That's not what I believe.







One must know the truth from Christ in order to be set free from sin.

Clearly you do not know the truth.

If you had confessed your sin then you would have been forgiven.

LA[/QUOTE]

 

[meshak]

Whoever lives by the golden rule is perfect in the sense that Jesus meant. See Matthew 7:12.

Jesus thought many things. His teachings are His law.

Jesus' standard is perfection.

Are you claiming to be perfect?

BTW,

Your comments to LA is not so Christian thing or godly thing to do.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Only a few posts before you were claiming that it was pride for me to determine if a person had been a true believer or not even when they had sat down with me face to face and shared their life experiences, their heart, their testimony. Now you, not having never seen or spoken with me face to face, claim to know the motives of my heart. I find that somewhat hypocritical.

Salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned but, as you know, the condition for receiving it is faith. Was your faith a "work" whereby you earned salvation. I would say it was not about trying harder but surrendering which is why many of us became believers because of a crisis that revealed our need of a Savior. I have never yet seen someone come to a saving faith just to enrich their lives.

What I apparently represent to you is a contradiction to your preconception that anyone who does not believe OSAS must be a legalist, full of pride, or a false believer. Although I have seen those whom I had personally known to be true believers fall into sin and then comfort themselves with the idea that no matter what they did they were saved, I do not pass judgment on everyone who believes in OSAS. There are many ministers of the word who are godly and anointed who happen to be in error about OSAS.

The writings of the earliest Christians until 350 AD or so reveal that they did not believe OSAS either. Unanimously they believed in conditional salvation. They did not believe in MAD either. I know this because they believed in the equal authority and inspiration of the whole NT without division or subdivision into microdispensations. There is no plausible explanation for that except that they were teaching what had been passed down from the Apostles. You think I am in error but, from the standpoint of early Christianity your views would have been considered in error.

You do realize that, ignorance isn't a virtue, don't you?

 

[elohiym]

So you are not saying that people practically do not commit sins, you are simply saying that God does not call it sin.

It's clear that is NOT what I'm claiming.

When I say I don't covet ever it means I really don't covet.

Do you still covet ever? Yes or no?

Jesus statement is not that believers are perfectly good and have no flaws He is simply saying a good tree will produce good fruit. It is a truism.

How can you ignore that he states a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, even after I make the point?

Do you think he chastens his sons when they are behaving? No, he disciplines them to bring them into conformity with his standards of character.

The prodigal son returns after he is chastened. He loved you while you were dead in your sins. You imagine the chastening started only when you reduced your sinning to "occasionally."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jesus is the Lord, self assurance is not of Jesus.

That's odd? Because, you seem to always be self assured about
your false beliefs?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Meshak, is your "self assurance" of Jesus?

 

[elohiym]

Jesus thought many things. His teachings are His law.

Jesus' standard is perfection.

Are you claiming to be perfect?

I answered you already.

BTW,

Your comments to LA is not so Christian thing or godly thing to do.

You must mean that about his comments to me.

 

[elohiym]

Do you in your thought, motives, words and actions always exemplify the image of Christ?

If I answer yes, how would you know? Your answer is no, correct? How do you know? It's just your imaginary idea of "the image of Christ" that you are measuring yourself and others against. It's folly.

Do you never exhibit behaviors and attitudes that are not congruent with the nine fruits of the Spirit.

No, viper, I don't. You are like your father the devil trying to tempt me. Jesus said stuff like that, too. Were his behaviors and attitudes congruent with your silly ideas?

If I were to ask your family, your co-workers or your spouse if you ever sin, I wonder what they would say?

Whatever they tell you, if you don't stop sinning occasionally, you are going to perish. I'm here to warn you. Whether I sin or not is the least of your problems, dude.

Forget about overt acts of sin. The only time we do not sin at all is when we are in His love and giving His love.

You are making stuff up now. Sin is wilful and always stems from unbelief, without exception. You will never get around that fact and maybe one day you will realize it.

I do not know about equivocating but we have free will and assuming we do not can have disastrous consequences.

Your will isn't free. If you sin you are a servant of sin (Ro 6:16). Belief isn't a choice. You will do whatever you believe. If you believe Christians continue to occasionally sin, that's what you will do, and die doing because the wages of sin is death.

John was talking to believers who were walking in the light when he said the blood (continually) cleansed them from all sin (1 John 1:7).

You are reading that as a license to sin occassionally with impunity, and if you teach that to children ... well ... Jesus said something about a millstone around your neck.

John was talking to those whom he called his children (in the faith) when he said "if anyone does sin" (1 John 2:1)

He didn't say, "if you sin." He taught those who believe, those who are born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 5:18.

Sin requires hatred for another. He wrote that whoever hates his brother is a murder, doesn't know God and doesn't have eternal life in the same epistle.

Your crazy "lifestyle" of sin doctrine is of the devil.

 

[meshak]

I answered you already.

Your answer is only partially right.

Do you know Jesus commands us to be perfect?

 

[elohiym]

The "positional" view of sinless perfectionism, that God cannot ever see any unrighteousness in me because I am "hid in Christ" is false.

I agree. That's not what I believe.

Paul often pointed out sins in believers.

No. You just don't know how to read Paul's letters and you're twisting his words to your own destruction.

It was the Holy Spirit who told Peter Ananaias and Sapphira had lied. How would He know if their sins were hidden? God also never revealed to Peter that they never had been true believers as he had about Simon the Magician. If Ananaias and Sapphira were not true believers the proper course of action would have been to preach Christ to them.

Jesus said to only go to a worthy house.

The practical view of "entire sanctification" is from Wesley but I do not see how one experience take the place of a life of yielding ones members to the Spirit.

The one experience is receiving the Holy Spirit. It's shocking you can't see how that one experience accomplishes everything.

Since yielding is an act of our will. It is a surrender of our humanity to Him for his use. This is an act of faith which is also obedience.

It is written, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."

That scripture remains true.

 

[elohiym]

Your answer is only partially right.

Do you know Jesus commands is to be perfect?

Yes. Do you know what he meant by perfect? He explains what he means by perfect. Look in saying and parables.

 

[elohiym]

YOU say we are to obey Jesus. JESUS says to be perfect. Then you attack others WHO OBEY AND those who acknowledge that they are PERFECT, just AS JESUS SAYS AND COMMANDS!

Thank you.

 

[meshak]

Yes. Do you know what he meant by perfect? He explains what he means by perfect. Look in saying and parables.

You are reasoning conveniently.

Do you know all Jesus' teachings are His law?

 

[elohiym]

Yes it appears we disagree on that point. I believe we can walk above sin but John allows that believers sometimes sin when is said "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not (commit a)sin. But if anyone does (commit a) sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1)

You are reading a false doctrine into those verses that contradicts other ideas in the same epistle. I've already made several arguments that you have ignored. Jesus will tell them he never knew them, but you are claiming he will have known them contrary to 1 John 3:6.

The purpose of his letter is to show people how to walk in holiness and avoid committing sins.

Yet you are using his words to justify sinning on occasion.

Instead John uses the aorist tense for sin which focuses not on continuous action but on specific acts. While he does not expect the believers to be living in sin he does allow that they might commit sins. If that happens the Apostle tells them they can be forgiven.

John wrote, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." You have to argue that he means a lifestyle of sin, but then you can't say a "believer" that falls into a lifestyle of sin ever knew Jesus. Your interpretation is irrational and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It is the same idea he addresses earlier. IF we walk in the light (as a practice) the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us (continually) from all sin.

You are teaching the blood of Christ is a license to sin. Stop!

The life is in the blood. The life in Christ's blood is the Spirit. It is the Spirit that cleanses us from all sin by making us incapable of sin. You claim to still sin occasionally, so can we agree you are either becoming unclean, guilty and dead when you sin, or do you think you have a license to sin occasionally?

An abiding believer does not live in sin. However, if a believer never sinned at all - if we never had an outburst of anger, or got impatient, or were never resentful, unforgiving, envious or bitter, in short, if we always expressed the image of Christ we would not need ongoing cleansing.

You are mixing things that are not sin (anger) with things that will keep a person out of the kingdom (not forgiving). If you don't forgive, then you are not forgiven. That's the way it works.

But the OP of this thread is OSAS which is a position which in which a person after a salvation experience is perfectly clean no matter what sin they may go on to commit.

That is a false doctrine, but it's hardly different from your false doctrine. You shouldn't be throwing stones in your glass house.

This is nothing more than antinomianism although many who believe the doctrine do not take it that way. The proponents of MAD would object to our even using John's letter as a reference since they believe the truths of John's writings were for the Jewish believers who lived in the first half of the First Century.

They are wrong, but so are you as I've pointed out.

 

[elohiym]

You are reasoning conveniently.

Do you know all Jesus' teachings are His law?

I had not considered that, but I do know that Matthew 7:12 fulfils the entire law.