On Rape (the original statement)

[Tambora]

just.....

wow


remind me not to hire you as a bank manager

You can blame him for not following proper bank procedure.
But you cannot blame him for theft, because he stole nothing.

The only one that can be blamed for theft is the thief.

 

[glorydaz]

If that is so, why so some parents go to jail for their negligence when their child gets out and ends up in bad situations?

The law finds the parent guilty of negligence and child endangerment all the time in cases like that, so they are held to have had responsibility. Even in cases where the parent isnt drinking, but failed to properly supervise their child.

Yep. Guilt is an equal opportunity employer. There is always plenty to go around. :thumb:

 

[bybee]

If that is so, why so some parents go to jail for their negligence when their child gets out and ends up in bad situations?

The law finds the parent guilty of negligence and child endangerment all the time in cases like that, so they are held to have had responsibility. Even in cases where the parent isnt drinking, but failed to properly supervise their child.

Of course such a parent is guilty of child endangerment and poor parenting.

 

[ok doser]

Full = 100%

The rapist bears 100% responsibility for the rape.

There's no room in your agreement that the rapist bears full responsibility to assign any proportion of responsibility to the victim.

You're arguing a losing (and false) proposition no matter how you frame it.

you only see it that way because you're misrepresenting my position anna - you're arguing against a strawman and you're not even aware that you're doing it - same with tam and bybee

 

[Angel4Truth]

Quite true. I wouldn't be prone to doing any further business there.

But I still want the ROBBERS prosecuted for the crime.

Of course! Whats missing in a lot of this discussion is that bearing some responsibility for negligence, etc.. doesnt remove the full accountability for the crime itself from the perpetrator.

 

[bybee]

you only see it that way because you're misrepresenting my position anna - you're arguing against a strawman and you're not even aware that you're doing it - same with tam and bybee

As usual, you find a way to so twist the responses of others that you always come out a winner.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Of course such a parent is guilty of child endangerment and poor parenting.

Then yes, they bear some responsibility because their child was lost. Their negligence contributed to what happened.

 

[annabenedetti]

you only see it that way because you're misrepresenting my position anna - you're arguing against a strawman and you're not even aware that you're doing it - same with tam and bybee

Nope. You made an assertion you couldn't support, and you've tried a dozen different scenarios and and extensions and qualifiers and everything else to dodge owning your words.

 

[ok doser]

A father leaves his children in the care of a known pedophile. The pedophile molests the children. I believe that everybody will agree that the pedophile is responsible for the crime of molestation. Does the father bear any responsibility for putting the children at risk?

I'd like to see Tam's, bybee's, anna's and foxfire's response to this before I go on.





eta: started a new thread

 

[bybee]

Then yes, they bear some responsibility because their child was lost. Their negligence contributed to what happened.

Nope. They didn't kidnap a child. A lost child may be returned to his/her home by a responsible neighbor.
As horrible as this scenario is and the parent guilty of child endangerment, still, the parent did not willfully have the child lost and kidnapped.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Nope. They didn't kidnap a child. A lost child may be returned to his/her home by a responsible neighbor.
As horrible as this scenario is and the parent guilty of child endangerment, still, the parent did not willfully have the child lost and kidnapped.

You say no, but you admit the parent was negligent so bore some responsibility in the situation altogether.

Nowhere did i say they were guilty of kidnapping. I said that they bear some responsibility for the larger situation (child being lost), because of their negligence.

The child would not have been lost, had they not been negligent. One doesnt exclude the other, and i think that is the larger point being missed.

 

[Tambora]

I'm thinking of a different "blame".

I don't think the victim shares in THE BLAME associated with the violence of the rape.

But, there is another additional blame that needs to be attributed, IN SOME INSTANCES, which does belong to the victim. Those are the consequences of one's BAD DECISIONS. It's the same fault we have when we put ourselves in any dangerous situation. The example I can't get away from is doing a strip tease at a frat party. No, it's not right if the girl gets raped, and the rapist is at fault for committing the rape, but the girl must bear some blame for getting raped. Not THE BLAME....but some.

As in most things, there is plenty of blame to go around.

I strongly disagree.

Every single man at that party can say "no thanks", no matter what the woman's actions are.
They (the men at the party) have no excuse whatsoever to rape her.

And any man that thinks a woman's actions make her some sort of excusable target for rape is a pervert.



Or, let me put this way with another example right here at TOL.
Can I partially blame Baby Jane for anything I chose to say or do here?
NO!
Can Baby Jane blame me for anything he chose to say or do here?
NO!
Each of us were solely responsible for what we each said.

Trying to pass the buck onto the actions of someone else is pathetic.
I am solely responsible for everything I say and do, because I always have the choice to not say or do it.
The choices I make are on me, and no one else, no matter how badly I think they act.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course such a parent is guilty of child endangerment and poor parenting.

Ah, in other words, there is always enough guilt to go around.

 

[glorydaz]

Each of us were solely responsible for what we each said.

Bingo.

The rapist bears the sole responsibility for the rape.

The stripper bears responsibility for her actions that incited the rape. She stripped, she wiggled and provoked, she winked and flirted. She does bear some responsibility for what happened to her. If you walk in front of a speeding car, you can't expect to walk away unscathed. Nothing takes away the guilt of the rapist or rapists....even if they were a bunch of drunk college boys. But, when a car is speeding toward you don't try and flag it down from the middle of the road.

 

[glorydaz]

You say no, but you admit the parent was negligent so bore some responsibility in the situation altogether.

Nowhere did i say they were guilty of kidnapping. I said that they bear some responsibility for the larger situation (child being lost), because of their negligence.

The child would not have been lost, had they not been negligent. One doesnt exclude the other, and i think that is the larger point being missed.

:first:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Nope. They didn't kidnap a child. A lost child may be returned to his/her home by a responsible neighbor.
As horrible as this scenario is and the parent guilty of child endangerment, still, the parent did not willfully have the child lost and kidnapped.

That needs to be pointed out, even though it wasn't willful (they expected their child to be kidnapped or wanted them to be) doesn't detract from their negligence/lack of responsibility playing a role in their child being lost.

So while they are not guilty of asking for a crime or for the crime of kidnapping itself, their actions played a role in a situation that made one possible - and they are responsible for their actions (negligence/neglect)

The law itself says so.

 

[Tambora]

Of course! Whats missing in a lot of this discussion is that bearing some responsibility for negligence, etc.. doesnt remove the full accountability for the crime itself from the perpetrator.

Right.

Negligence does not make one a thief, theft does.
There is no amount of negligence that a thief can place blame upon for his own thieving actions.

 

[glorydaz]

Right.

Negligence does not make one a thief, theft does.
There is no amount of negligence that a thief can place blame upon for his own thieving actions.

True, but I can blame myself for leaving my purse on the front seat of my unlocked car....and I have. :chuckle:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Right.

Negligence does not make one a thief, theft does.
There is no amount of negligence that a thief can place blame upon for his own thieving actions.

Agree, but the negligence of say leaving your keys in your car, or your car running while you ran into the quick mart, does play a role in your car being stolen, even though you arent guilty of theft.

Sometimes that role of ones negligence is enough for the insurance company to deny covering your loss. They see that the careless actions put your property in harms way.

 

[glorydaz]

Agree, but the negligence of say leaving your keys in your car, or your car running while you ran into the quick mart, does play a role in your car being stolen, even though you arent guilty of theft.

Sometimes that role of ones negligence is enough for the insurance company to deny covering your loss. They see that the careless actions put your property in harms way.

Sometimes it's equal fault under the law. I like those "mutual combat" charges. Who threw the first punch as opposed to who ran his mouth so bad the first punch was thrown.