On Rape (the original statement)

[Rusha]

The *even if he was drugged* inferred he wasn't drunk but rather drinking and someone slipped something into his drink.

Wouldn't it be his own fault for being loud, obnoxious and flirty with a bunch of women? Why didn't he stay at home and rotate his tires?

That's rape.

I would agree ... though in the current scenario that has been set up, he would still be responsible for the mere fact he was out partying. Why wasn't he paying attention to what was going on around him? Why didn't he just stay home?

THAT is not *my* logic by the way. Taking sexual or financial advantage of someone else is always wrong ... especially when they are not of sound mind.

To err is human, but rape is an intentional act. Taking advantage of or hurting someone just because it can be done is always wrong.

 

[bybee]

Thats just it, a fool, would walk naked through a mans prison and think nothing could happen and that their actions played no part in what happens.

Only a fool would display all they have openly and believe no one would take advantage.

That IS my point, is the fool less of a fool, because someone takes advantage and becomes the victim of a crime? No, their foolishness played a role in them becoming a victim (not for the actual crime that occured)

That doesnt remove that they are a victim.

It doesnt take away the responsibility of the rapist or the thief.

Thats the point so many are missing here.

I left off the other part of your post, as i am talking about willful foolishness.

Again we are talking of two different things. A victim is not a criminal. And a criminal is not a victim no matter how sorely tempted he feels himself to be.

 

[Rusha]

When people don't face up to their own faults they will continue to walk in blindness to them. Common Sense!

*Common sense* should tell you that a child drowning or running in front of a car does not include someone INTENTIONALLY seeing the situation and targeting the child.

It's accidental. Stupid and heartbreaking.

Rape is not accidental. It's intentional.

 

[Rusha]

Again we are talking of two different things. A victim is not a criminal. And a criminal is not a victim no matter how sorely tempted he feels himself to be.

Agreed. There is complete different set of motives and factors involved. The rapist's sole purpose is to violate his/her victim.

The rape victim did not wake up in the morning and say "Wow, I think I want to get raped today!"

 

[musterion]

The rape victim did not wake up in the morning and say "Wow, I think I want to get raped today!"

Right, they did not. Nor do they wake up and say, "Wow, I think I want to put myself in a situation and/or condition that common sense tells me will greatly increase my chances of getting raped today!" Yet millions do precisely that and when they do, we're told they bear zero responsibility for their stupid choice.

 

[Rusha]

Right, they did not. Nor do they wake up and say, "Wow, I think I want to put myself in a situation that common sense tells me will greatly increase my chances of getting raped today!" Yet millions do precisely that and when they do, we're told they bear zero responsibility for it.

If you are out drinking with a group of friends and become a victim at the hands of some anonymous person, are you responsible for their actions towards you?

 

[glorydaz]

*Common sense* should tell you that a child drowning or running in front of a car does not include someone INTENTIONALLY seeing the situation and targeting the child.

It's accidental. Stupid and heartbreaking.

Rape is not accidental. It's intentional.

I'm talking about another fault....besides the fault of the perp. The fact remains, no matter how hard you work to ignore it, people do hold some responsibility for their own bad decisions. I'm simply amazed you aren't able to separate the two.

 

[glorydaz]

Right, they did not. Nor do they wake up and say, "Wow, I think I want to put myself in a situation and/or condition that common sense tells me will greatly increase my chances of getting raped today!" Yet millions do precisely that and when they do, we're told they bear zero responsibility for their stupid choice.

I'm convinced there is no room in the liberal mind for common sense. And, there are some issues (like this one) where the liberal propaganda has done an excellent job. :doh:

 

[musterion]

If you are out drinking with a group of friends and become a victim at the hands of some anonymous person, are you responsible for their actions towards you?

Is this anonymous person one of those I was out with? You're really straining for hypotheticals now. Your objections have been answered at length.

 

[Rusha]

Is this anonymous person one of those I was out with? You're really straining for hypotheticals now. Your objections have been answered at length.

The *objection* is putting the victim in the same category as the aggressor. Only a rapist is responsible for committing rape. This thread is in reference to the original statement of the thread, post no. 1:

"rape is a choice that women make"

Being raped is not a mutual decision, in the same way that being aborted, being robbed, being murdered, having your house broken into, etc. is not a mutual decision.

 

[Rusha]

I'm talking about another fault....besides the fault of the perp.

The *fault* is on the same level as someone breaking into a home and stealing a gun that is not secured in the gun safe and then blaming the owner because the person uses the gun to shoot and kill someone.

OR aborting an unborn baby conceived via rape ... the rapist is responsible for the rape, not the unborn child.

Acts of forced aggression are always the fault of those using the force.

Rape is the only situation in which the victim has a valid reason to not report the crime or refuse to testify. They can expect a second type of attack in court or in the media. A shifting of the responsibility in order to take the focus off of the rapist.

 

[intojoy]

I would say date rape gets the guy off the hook. I mean making out, getting nude and then saying no?

That has some defense for the guy does it not?

 

[musterion]

The *objection* is putting the victim in the same category as the aggressor. Only a rapist is responsible for committing rape.

Speaking as a man and a father, I have no problem with proven, convicted rapists hanging. They alone bear the penalty for what they choose to do.

But as Glory has been trying to get through to you, if a woman chooses to put herself in a situation or condition where her rape becomes much more likely, whereas without that choice it would have been less likely, she bears responsibility for increasing the probability.

Does that happen in every case of rape? Of course not. But it does happen in many and usually involves her choosing to impair herself around lustful men who may also be impaired or may just be waiting for an easy chance to seduce/rape her while she is impaired.

Why do responsible parents tell their teen daughters not to go out partying indiscriminately? We all know the answer to that. It's exactly what we're talking about. That common sense responsibility doesn't stop with that girl turns 18 and goes out on her own.

 

[bybee]

Speaking as q man and a father, I'd have no problem with proven, convicted rapists hanging. They alone bear the penalty for what they choose to do.

But as Glory has been trying to get through to you, if a woman chose to put herself in a situation or condition where her rape became much more likely, whereas without that choice it would have been less likely, she bears responsibility for increasing the probability.

Does that happen in every case of rape? Of course not. But it does happen in many and usually involves her choosing to impair herself around lustful men who may also be impaired or may just be waiting for an easy chance to rape her.

Why do responsible parents tell their teen daughters not to go out partying indiscriminately? We all know the answer to that. It's exactly what we're talking about.

I do not wish to dilute responsibility for behavior. The minute one places blame on a victim responsibility is diluted for the aggressor.
They are two different things. Of course the rest of us are not stupid! We do know what you are talking about. People must use caution for their own good.

 

[Truster]

Rape.

Moved this to ECT.

 

[musterion]

I do not wish to dilute responsibility for behavior.

Nor do we, esp. that of an actual rapist.

The minute one places blame on a victim responsibility is diluted for the aggressor.

Respectfully disagree. It does not. And blame isnt even the word I used.

They are two different things.

Exactly. Rusha and others here rightly account for the one but ignore the other.

Of course the rest of us are not stupid! We do know what you are talking about. People must use caution for their own good.

So should a woman who chooses to drink or drug herself insensible around men who then seduce or rape her bear absolutely no responsibility - not blame, responsibility - for choosing to put herself in that impaired condition, as others insist she should not? The man/men only took wicked advantage of her impairment and should hang for it if it was rape, but they didn't force her impairment upon her. She did that herself.

 

[bybee]

Nor do we, esp. that of an actual rapist.



Respectfully disagree. It does not. And blame isnt even the word I used.



Exactly. Rusha and others here rightly account for the one but ignore the other.



So should a woman who chooses to drink or drug herself insensible around men who then seduce or rape her bear absolutely no responsibility - not blame, responsibility - for choosing to put herself in that impaired condition, as others insist she should not? The man/men only took wicked advantage of her impairment and should hang for it if it was rape, but they didn't force her impairment upon her. She did that herself.

We are EACH responsible for the words of our mouths, the deeds of our hands and the way of our feet.
Decent people do not take advantage of the weakness of others.
The Liberal agenda is to blame the victim if at all possible and make the victim complicit in a crime committed against them.
Everyone is to blame because people are hungry. Everyone is still to blame because people were once enslaved. Sin and vice are available therefore the person who sins was just tempted beyond ability to resist?
I know the difference between rape and foolish or irresponsible behavior.

 

[PureX]

If someone left their keys in their car door and someone stole their car, is that no longer theft?

OK, the police should tell the driver they were very silly to leave themselves vulnerable, then they should go catch and prosecute the thief. Tempting a thief with an easy steal does not stop the taking of the car from being theft.

It doesn't matter how much a woman makes herself vulnerable, sex without permission is still rape.

40 posts before someone actually makes some sense!

 

[musterion]

We are EACH responsible for the words of our mouths, the deeds of our hands and the way of our feet.
Decent people do not take advantage of the weakness of others.

Yep. Rapists aren't decent.

The Liberal agenda is to blame the victim if at all possible and make the victim complicit in a crime committed against them.

The Leftist agenda blames the victim when the victim is someone they don't like or don't need to further the agenda. Example, Sarah Palin's vicious treatment at the hands of the media, which she somehow "deserved," or the young man and woman in Tn. who were both raped, tortured and murdered by a gang of black men...silence.

But in other cases, they seek to absolve people they favor no matter what they did, like the dead fat thug in Ferguson or the lying stripper who said a bunch of frat boys raped her when it was proved they hadn't.

I know the difference between rape and foolish or irresponsible behavior.

So why do some here (not you) have a problem with us pointing out a person's foolish, irresponsible behavior when it directly leads to their rape? Why are we at fault for pointing out the obvious and just calling it what it is? Serious question.

 

[bybee]

Yep. Rapists aren't decent.

The Leftist agenda blames the victim when the victim is someone they don't like or don't need to further the agenda. Example, Sarah Palin's vicious treatment at the hands of the media, which she somehow "deserved," or the young man and woman in Tn. who were both raped, tortured and murdered by a gang of black men...silence.

But in other cases, they seek to absolve people they favor no matter what they did, like the dead fat thug in Ferguson or the lying stripper who said a bunch of frat boys raped her when it was proved they hadn't.

So why do some here (not you) have a problem with us pointing out a person's foolish, irresponsible behavior when it directly leads to their rape? Why are we at fault for pointing out the obvious and just calling it what it is? Serious question.

I do not fault anyone who responds with their take on a situation in a respectful manner. We learn from each other on this board.
My take on the premise of this thread? The author was seeking validation for rapists whenever the victim has behaved foolishly or provocatively. I adamantly oppose this position. This does not mean that I somehow do not understand that people are responsible for their own behavior. The scenario has two protagonists, a criminal and a victim. The criminal commits a crime. The victim is the object of that crime.
What the victim did that may have left her vulnerable to a crime is her/his issue.
What the criminal did is, not only his/her issue, but also the concern of society. They are two separate issues.