ECT Omnipresence of Jesus

[JosephR]

Jhn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I needed to see this.. thank you..

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Praise The Father

 

[0scar]

Bodilty He would leave, spiritually He would remain here, as in Heaven.

No Scriptural basis. Christ is a whole person, the whole Christ is divine and the whole Christ is human. Dividing Jesus into a half divine and a half human is Nestorianism.

 

[0scar]

John 16:4 ...“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate[a] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

Jesus was about to go, that is not staying. For his own words he was "going away". He was not staying but leaven. The idea is that with him leaving Earth it will be sent (to Earth) the Holy Spirit.
In few words, Jesus is saying that beacuse he is on Earth, the Holy Spirit is not on Earth. And because he was leaving, then the Holy Spirit was coming.
Obviously neither Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit were omnipresent. Only one of them on Earth and the other absent.

 

[0scar]

John 14:15-17
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever —
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

the Holy Spirit is not omnipresent.
the Holy Spirit was not here but Jesus was promessing to send him
not only that, when the Holy Spirit came, he abide only with BAC, not the world

the Holy Spirit is God
the Holy Spirit is not omnipresent
God is not omnipresent
Jesus is God
Jesus is not omnipresent

 

[Quasar1011]

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Christ sustains all things; and in him all things hold together.

 

[Quasar1011]

No where in John 1 we read of Jesus being in two places.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

If "all things" were made through Christ- before He had a human body- did He stand off from His creation while creating it? Or was He present within His creation while forming and sustaining it? Genesis 2:7 indicates He was right there on Earth:

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

This indicates that, instead of being in 2 places, Jesus is in "all places"!

 

[0scar]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

If "all things" were made through Christ- before He had a human body- did He stand off from His creation while creating it? Or was He present within His creation while forming and sustaining it? Genesis 2:7 indicates He was right there on Earth:

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

This indicates that, instead of being in 2 places, Jesus is in "all places"!

After incarnation, when Jesus had human body, his presence was restricted to where his body was.

 

[0scar]

Hebrews 1:3
"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

How could Jesus sustain all things, if He wasn't present among all those
things? :think:

Before he had provided purification for sins, he was not sat at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

How could Jesus not be in heaven sat by the Majesty if he were omnipresent.

 

[Quasar1011]

After incarnation, when Jesus had human body, his presence was restricted to where his body was.

If that is true, how could Jesus raise Himself from the dead?

John 10:17-18
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Also, 1st Peter 3:18-20 says, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Where were these spirits in prison? That would be Hades.

Ephesians 4:7-10 tells us what else Christ did in that realm:
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

A couple of points arise from this:
1) If Christ was restricted to where His physical body was, how did He descend into Hades?
2) If Christ was restricted to where His physical body was, how can He fill all things? :think:

 

[0scar]

If that is true, how could Jesus raise Himself from the dead?

John 10:17-18
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Also, 1st Peter 3:18-20 says, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Where were these spirits in prison? That would be Hades.

The issue of the resurrection has no connection with omnipresence. It is more to non-omnipresence. Jesus was dead for 3 days, 3 days when he was not on Heaven. those 3 days he went to Hell to preach. This is 3 days not being on Heaven, not being omnipresent.

The question is... was Jesus on Hell before his dead? was Jesus on Hell after resurrection and is him there still today? The answer is that Jesus was on Hell for only 3 days. The rest of the eternity Jesus was not on Hell. That is a lot of time not being omnipresent.

 

[0scar]

Ephesians 4:7-10 tells us what else Christ did in that realm:
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

A couple of points arise from this:
1) If Christ was restricted to where His physical body was, how did He descend into Hades?
2) If Christ was restricted to where His physical body was, how can He fill all things? :think:

Think
If Jesus descended, he descended to where he was not before descending. What is the point on descending to where he already was? He descended because he was not there
If Jesus ascended, the question is the same. Jesus ascended to where he was not.
That are 2 places where Jesus was not and went to, by descending and by ascending. Always going to places he was not.
Any how, that alowed him to fill all things. If Jesus might fill all things is because he was not filling all things. Now that he descended and ascended he might fill all things. But before, Jesus was not filling all things.
Think... Jesus was not omnipresent.

 

[0scar]

Acts 2:25 For David says concerning him,


‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will live in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One experience corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29 “Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying,


‘He was not abandoned to Hades,
nor did his flesh experience corruption.’

32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear.

 

[0scar]

Acts 2:25 For David says concerning him,
‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will live in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One experience corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying,
‘He was not abandoned to Hades,
nor did his flesh experience corruption.’
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear.

Jesus - today - is not at Hades. He went to Hades after his dead until his resurrection.
But Jesus was not at Hades anytime before, and is not at Hades today.
Jesus is not Hades = Jesus is not in at least one place.
Jesus is not in one place = Jesus is not at every place
Jesus is not at everyplace = Jesus is not omnipresent

 

[intojoy]

Captain,
I understand your zeal here. I'm not sure I like the idea of giving an amen to your argument tho.

Please explain how the Father is omnipresent. By doing that perhaps I can understand why this is so needed by your theology.

 

[0scar]

Captain,
I understand your zeal here. I'm not sure I like the idea of giving an amen to your argument tho.

Please explain how the Father is omnipresent. By doing that perhaps I can understand why this is so needed by your theology.

One think we know: that Jesus as portrayed in the gospels was not omnipresent. He was on Heaven, came down to Earth, even down to Hades and rose back to Heaven from where we wait his return to Earth. Jesus has always be in only one place of the three: Heaven, Earth and Hades; and absent of the other two.
Not only that, but while on Earth, Jesus always was located in a specific place and in no other.
The evidence of the gospels is absolute: Jesus was not omnipresent.
(same with omniscience and omnipotence, but lest focus here)

The problem is the sinlogism that many (too many) christians repeat:
God (the Father) is omnipresent
Jesus is God
Jesus has to be omnipresent
if Jesus is not omnipresent, he is not God
denaying Jesus omnipresence is denaying his deity.

We know Jesus is not omnipresent (except that according to the sinlogism he HAS to be). And we know Jesus is God. Then NECESARELY the mistake or misunderstanding is somewhere else:
Jesus is not omnipresent
Jesus is God
God is not omnipresent

Isnt God omnipresent?

 

[intojoy]

One think we know: that Jesus as portrayed in the gospels was not omnipresent. He was on Heaven, came down to Earth, even down to Hades and rose back to Heaven from where we wait his return to Earth. Jesus has always be in only one place of the three: Heaven, Earth and Hades; and absent of the other two.

Not only that, but while on Earth, Jesus always was located in a specific place and in no other.

The evidence of the gospels is absolute: Jesus was not omnipresent.

(same with omniscience and omnipotence, but lest focus here)



The problem is the sinlogism that many (too many) christians repeat:

God (the Father) is omnipresent

Jesus is God

Jesus has to be omnipresent

if Jesus is not omnipresent, he is not God

denaying Jesus omnipresence is denaying his deity.



We know Jesus is not omnipresent (except that according to the sinlogism he HAS to be). And we know Jesus is God. Then NECESARELY the mistake or misunderstanding is somewhere else:

Jesus is not omnipresent

Jesus is God

God is not omnipresent



Isnt God omnipresent?

I understood your points, my question is

How do you define God's omnipresence???

 

[0scar]

Isnt God (the Father) omnipresent?
I have searched the OT. There is a good number of verses describing God presence as being unlimited, absolute, total, and all adjectives we can use.
Personally I am not sure if according to the OT God is present in absolutely ebery place at all times; or is it that God has no limitation on reaching and being in whatever place he will.
But this technocal different is not the key point. I dont need to determine if God presence actually fill every corner of everything, or it is that there is no corner out of hes reach. That is not what gives us (me) the solution.

The key point is that all description of God´s presence as omnipresent, it is solely a description of his presence. It is not an statement of what God is, but a descrption of where he is.
God can not cease to be what he is. God is light and can not cease to be light. But omnipresence is not what God is, and he will be God even not being everywhere. For having an unlimited and infinite presence is not what makes God to be God. God will continue to be God even he choose not to be in Hades - for example - or any particular place.

 

[0scar]

I understood your points, my question is

How do you define God's omnipresence???

be patient. I am slow typeing

 

[0scar]

the point is that the sinlogism is wrong becase Jesus not necesarelly has to have omnipresence to be God

Australia is an island
Australia is a sovereign country
an island is a sovereign country

Australia is an island
Puerto Rico is an island
Australia is Puerto Rico

Australia is an island
Queensland is Australia
Queensland is an island

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus was a son.

A son has a predecessor.

A son cannot be omnipresent.

Jesus was NOT a biological son as you see it. That's just plain ignorant.