Nontrinitarianism

IMJerusha

New member
We all know this keypurr, but it's NOT a matter of what you believe, it's a matter of what God says in His written word.
I suggest you get the PROPER colour palette installed in your brain.
LOL...yeh right.

And what would the "PROPER" colour palette look like, Stan? I am of the impression that every colour on that palette is red but perhaps I'm wrong?

I look at this argument in this way. If we love God and wish to honor Him, then we love and honor His Son, Yeshua. And if we love God and wish to honor Him, then we love and honor the Ruach, His Spirit. The Trinity is a concept and doctrine that wasn't arrived at until 300 years after the death of Yeshua at the First Council of Nicaea. Not one single one of us knows the absolute of it and certainly not enough to cast any of the Body in a negative light over it.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I believe that the WORD in John 1 is not Jesus but the spirit Christ that was in him. Believing that Heb 1 tells me that Christ was a servant God used to create everything. I see him as a created FORM of God as he was given the fullness of the Father.

Believing the way I do paints a different picture than you see Lon. Christ has God that he obeys. I do not see equality with the Father in any way.

I don't think I am guessing Lon, I honestly have tried to disprove what's in my mind. I only found support for my thoughts.

More of your "Theories" to throw into the dumpster.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Did not God create everything THROUGH his son?

What's your problem Lon?

Why did you not quote verse 15 in Colossians?

How about Heb 1:1-3?

God did indeed create his image and gave it power.

Your jumping to conclusions again.

And, you're jumping into delusion again.
 

StanJ

New member
And what would the "PROPER" colour palette look like, Stan? I am of the impression that every colour on that palette is red but perhaps I'm wrong?

I look at this argument in this way. If we love God and wish to honor Him, then we love and honor His Son, Yeshua. And if we love God and wish to honor Him, then we love and honor the Ruach, His Spirit. The Trinity is a concept and doctrine that wasn't arrived at until 300 years after the death of Yeshua at the First Council of Nicaea. Not one single one of us knows the absolute of it and certainly not enough to cast any of the Body in a negative light over it.

This was addressed at keypurr, but God Himself supplies that palette in His word.
I note you call yourself a Messianic Jew and NOT a Christian. Now I have known all types of Jewish sects over the years. Jews for Jesus was my first experience, but today there are many, with VARIED doctrinal positions. Do you subscribe to what has been commonly termed Judeo Christianity?

The trinity has always existed, and since Jesus it was made complete.
Arius was the first to go against actual Christian teachings in 250 AD, and He was refuted and his doctrine held as heretical, AT the First Nicene Council. This hasn't changed in almost 2000 years except that the true BOC has no real power in society to actually ostracize them but we just don't accept them in the BOC.
Who God ACTUALLY is, must be defended against FALSE teachings.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I believe that the WORD in John 1 is not Jesus but the spirit Christ that was in him. Believing that Heb 1 tells me that Christ was a servant God used to create everything. I see him as a created FORM of God as he was given the fullness of the Father.
As John gives equality so does Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
As Jesus is God, but also the Father and Spirit also, that Hebrew uses 'through' in this case is unfortunate, in that it allows a Unitarian to misread, but from verse 3-8, Hebrews makes it clear Jesus is God. You cannot escape verse 8. It is as clear as the white page and the black ink.

Believing the way I do paints a different picture than you see Lon.
Yes it does.

Christ has God that he obeys. I do not see equality with the Father in any way.
Jesus himself claims equality in John 14.

I don't think I am guessing Lon, I honestly have tried to disprove what's in my mind. I only found support for my thoughts.
That's confirmation bias, however. It is finding and/or making data fit your preconceptions. I think we all do it, but we must be correctable on such because confirmation bias ONLY makes us comfortable, it doesn't mean anything about truth. Most of us don't want to get out of bed in the morning, but similarly, truth is often uncomfortable. It makes us have to change. If we cherish a thing, it makes it that much harder.

I have a very hard time with Unitarian thought whenever I read John 20:28 and Philippians 2:9-11 and it screams to Unitarians "Bad form!"
 

Lon

Well-known member
I beg to differ with you Lon, and am a bit surprised you would make such a statement.

John 1:1-5

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

This is Scripture's quintessential introduction of Yeshua to the world.
"Through" Him creation came to exist. "Through" me, you are hearing my words. Nobody is pulling my strings as such.

Are you sure you are arguing the same point that I am?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
it is God and the Lamb. In this passage it cannot be denied that the one on the throne of God and of the Lamb is God and the Lamb--"and I will be His God." And since there can only be One who is Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the end it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus is God. Here are His own words:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

You answered none of my points because all you did was to ask a question.

Can't you do better than that?

God AND the Lamb, not God and God.

Everything come to us from God through Christ.
..
 

Lon

Well-known member
God AND the Lamb, not God and God.

Everything come to us from God through Christ.
..
Again, for us, John 1:1 is the basis for understanding: "...was with God AND was God."

Any explanation from the Unitarian regarding John 1:1 is derogatory and offensive to us and the book of John as a whole.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
No. I'm telling you that was the exception to the rule. You are 'weird' if you think 'you' are the exception to the rule. "You" are going against Christianity, you know, HIS church/body? That is much different than Pharisees. There were no Pharisees in the Old Testament. You and other Arian/Unitarians 'allowed' yourselves to easily think 'special' and 'highly' about yourselves but that was hasty, and therefore wrong.

Think of it this way: General math is basic and understandable. God made things according to basic mathematics so we can understand His universe based on it. BUT He also made the universe according to algebraic terms which are also absolutely true but often incredibly complicated. If all you know concerning God is basic, I think that is fine but if you deny, by example here, Algebra exists, you are doing some dangerous things.

As a Unitarian, you are doing dangerous things. You are denying scriptures that make it clear Jesus is God and there is only one. You are expecting and making no exceptions for what I believe is an Algebraic type of term: Triune. I believe it is a must from scripture. Ignoring "x, y, and or n" actually makes the problem and answer wrong in Algebra and it is a serious matter. Insisting on it, endangers other's relationship with God, and that certainly is cause for heretical concern.

One Hundred Scriptural Arguments for the Unitarian Faith

Unitarian Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and the Saviour of men. They believe in the divinity of his mission and in the divinity of his doctrines. They believe that the Gospel which he proclaimed came from God; that the knowledge it imparts, the morality it enjoins, the spirit it breathes, the acceptance it provides, the promises it makes, the prospects it exhibits, the rewards it proposes, the punishments it threatens, all proceed from the Great Jehovah. But they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Supreme God. They believe that, though exalted far above all other created intelligences, he is a being distinct from, inferior to, and dependent upon, the Father Almighty. For this belief they urge, among other reasons, the following arguments from the Scriptures.

1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me,” John 8:17, 18.

2. Because he not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. This language our Saviour used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”

3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” Matt. 3:17. Can a son be coeval and the same with his father?

4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” Acts 10:38. Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?

5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,” Heb. 3:1. The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.

6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.

etc.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/100-scriptural-arguments-for-the-unitarian-faith
LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Again, for us, John 1:1 is the basis for understanding: "...was with God AND was God."

Any explanation from the Unitarian regarding John 1:1 is derogatory and offensive to us and the book of John as a whole.

Did you ever consider that RCC trinitarianism is offensive to Jesus Christ, who said what He meant, and meant what He said.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
God AND the Lamb, not God and God.

Everything come to us from God through Christ.
..

True.

The creator is seen receiving Jesus the man and gave him the book from the creators hand.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.



Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
God AND the Lamb, not God and God.

Everything come to us from God through Christ.

Then you must believe that there are two who describe themselves as the Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the end.

How did you ever trick your mind into believing such nonsense?
 

IMJerusha

New member
This was addressed at keypurr, but God Himself supplies that palette in His word.

Yes, He does, it's called the red blood of Yeshua.

I note you call yourself a Messianic Jew and NOT a Christian.

Then you note incorrectly. I do call myself a Christian. My faith expression within Christianity is Messianic Judaism.

Now I have known all types of Jewish sects over the years. Jews for Jesus was my first experience, but today there are many, with VARIED doctrinal positions. Do you subscribe to what has been commonly termed Judeo Christianity?

You mean Judeo Christianity as in Yeshua, the first Judeo Christian? LOL Yeah, I definitely subscribe to Him.

The trinity has always existed,

Really? How do you know....were you there?

and since Jesus it was made complete.

That's an interesting declaration, one that even Yeshua would not have made.

Arius was the first to go against actual Christian teachings in 250 AD, and He was refuted and his doctrine held as heretical, AT the First Nicene Council.

Not everyone who doesn't hold with the doctrines established at the First Council of Nicaea holds with Arius. You seem to think folks have to follow one or the other.

This hasn't changed in almost 2000 years except that the true BOC has no real power in society to actually ostracize them but we just don't accept them in the BOC.

And you are? LOL Yeshua is the One who decides who is of His Body and who is not. History is full of examples of those who would usurp His authority.

Who God ACTUALLY is, must be defended against FALSE teachings.

And you know who God ACTUALLY is? My goodness, however will you get that head through the pearly gates?
 

IMJerusha

New member
"Through" Him creation came to exist. "Through" me, you are hearing my words. Nobody is pulling my strings as such.

Are you sure you are arguing the same point that I am?

I wasn't arguing. Just questioning the accuracy of your statement.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Then you must believe that there are two who describe themselves as the Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the end.

How did you ever trick your mind into believing such nonsense?

You ought consider that much of what God said in the OT, is prophecy concerning Jesus Christ who identified Himself as the one of whom the OT verses spoke.

You are drawing the wrong conclusions.

God dwells IN Jesus Christ.

God was IN Christ.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD ( Yahweh), he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD (Yahweh) have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD:(Yahweh) that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Yahweh has given His Glory to His servant, His son, not to any other.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"Through" Him creation came to exist. "Through" me, you are hearing my words. Nobody is pulling my strings as such.

Are you sure you are arguing the same point that I am?

When God created through Jesus Christ, it does not mean Jesus Christ created anything.

LA
 

Lon

Well-known member
When God created through Jesus Christ, it does not mean Jesus Christ created anything.

LA
I think this incredibly biased against scripture (Colossians 1) of course. It probably could have gone without saying on your part because of that, for both of us. I'm fairly sure I knew this about you before you said it.
 

StanJ

New member
Yes, He does, it's called the red blood of Yeshua.

His name is JESUS and of course He had red blood. Don't all men/women?

Then you note incorrectly. I do call myself a Christian. My faith expression within Christianity is Messianic Judaism.

Your profile shows;
Messianic Jew
Right Wing Zealot
Sorry but neither of those relate to being a Christian. Why don't you call/label yourself as a Christian if you follow Christ your Messiah?

You mean Judeo Christianity as in Yeshua, the first Judeo Christian? LOL Yeah, I definitely subscribe to Him.

No, I mean Judeo Christianity in what Paul fought against throughout his ministry. What Romans taught against. What Paul fought Peter and James about...bringing Judaism into Christianity and polluting it with OC laws.

Really? How do you know....were you there?

NO obviously, which BTW is pure avoidance, as you obviously know that.

That's an interesting declaration, one that even Yeshua would not have made.

Are you sure He didn't ?

Not everyone who doesn't hold with the doctrines established at the First Council of Nicaea holds with Arius. You seem to think folks have to follow one or the other.

Never said so. You'll have to be a tad more specific as to WHAT doctrines you are referring to but the dogma of Arius is what I was referring to.

And you are? LOL Yeshua is the One who decides who is of His Body and who is not. History is full of examples of those who would usurp His authority.

The Bible shows us what is required, and IF one doesn't believe what is taught there, then one doesn't believe Jesus. You don't think labeleing Jesus as NOT God is not usurping His authority?

And you know who God ACTUALLY is? My goodness, however will you get that head through the pearly gates?

I know who He actually is yes. Not fully but actually. FYI there are no pearly gates and WE are not bound for heaven.
 
Last edited:

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You ought consider that much of what God said in the OT, is prophecy concerning Jesus Christ who identified Himself as the one of whom the OT verses spoke.

Like this prophecy?:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​
 
Top