Nontrinitarianism

[Lazy afternoon]

Here the Lord is portrayed as "Son of Man" and not as Son of God. Here He is seen as being a Servant.

But later He will be seen as God because it is Him who will be sitting on the One Throne, The Throne of God and of the Lamb.

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

If there is two sitting on the Throne of God and of the Lamb we would not hear anything about His servants serving "Him."

If there were two on the Throne of God and of the Lamb then we would read about His servants serving "Them."

But that is not what is said, is it?

We can also understand that this verse also reveals that there is only "One" who sits upon the same throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful" (Rev.21:5).​

Now a simple question for you. Do you think that there can be more than one who can describe themselves as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End?

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


The Biblical record is of how God raised up His son, a man, to rule over His fellow saints, and together rule over all nations when the Kingdoms of the earth come under the dominion of the saints--

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

You do not know that the Father lives in and speaks through His son as He did throughout His ministry.

You have no discernment so you think Jesus is not a man, Gods son.

Most all your doctrines come from the fallen reasonings of your mind, and you are unteachable.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Since the LORD will not give His glory to another but he did give it to the Lord Jesus then we can know that the Lord Jesus is God. The LORD obviously does not consider the Lord Jesus to be in the category of "another."

No.

God said He would not give His Glory to any other than His servant as the Bible says He has done.

You make these things up.

LA

 

[keypurr]

Here the Lord is portrayed as "Son of Man" and not as Son of God. Here He is seen as being a Servant.



But later He will be seen as God because it is Him who will be sitting on the One Throne, The Throne of God and of the Lamb.

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

If there is two sitting on the Throne of God and of the Lamb we would not hear anything about His servants serving "Him."



If there were two on the Throne of God and of the Lamb then we would read about His servants serving "Them."



But that is not what is said, is it?



We can also understand that this verse also reveals that there is only "One" who sits upon the same throne:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful" (Rev.21:5).​

Now a simple question for you. Do you think that there can be more than one who can describe themselves as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End?

The Lord is a servant of his God.

Consider Jerry that the son of man is not Jesus, it is the spirit that was in him. The son of man came down from heaven, Jesus did not do that. Jesus being the flesh is the Lamb.

Does it not say that Jesus Christ sits on the right side of God?

You ask some good questions friend.

 

[Bright Raven]

The Lord is a servant of his God.

Consider Jerry that the son of man is not Jesus, it is the spirit that was in him. The son of man came down from heaven, Jesus did not do that. Jesus being the flesh is the Lamb.

Does it not say that Jesus Christ sits on the right side of God?

You ask some good questions friend.

John 3:13 Modern English Version (MEV)

13 No one has ascended to heaven except He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[keypurr]

John 3:13 Modern English Version (MEV)



13 No one has ascended to heaven except He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Amen, I believe that. The son of man is the express image of God, the spirit son of the most high God. Only Christ came down from heaven, Jesus was born like any other man, he was flesh. Flesh was not in heaven BR, Jesus was born into the world that was built through the spirit son of God, Christ. The son of God existed long before Jesus was born.

Praise be to the Father and his son he sent so that we may have eternal life

"Father, open their eyes to your secrets, let them see your truth. I ask this in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen."

 

[daqq]

Again, this is speaking of the Lord Jesus and indeed He is the Almighty:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Of course this is the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev.1:2) and since there can only be One who can be called the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and the end we can know that the coming one is the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

You are just cherry picking what you prefer, taking things out of their contexts, and pasting together a doctrine as others here have already stated. The Messenger in Rev 22 clearly tells John not to worship him and then continues speaking and yet sounding as if he is more than who he is because the Father speaks through His Messengers and the Father speaks the Word which is His Son, (Testimony is Spirit). But before that, in the following passage, you ignore the fact that it says there shall be no more death, and you ignore what Paul says about the same things where he writes that in the end the Son delivers up the kingdom to the Father when there is no more death:

Revelation 21:3-7 ASV
3. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
4. and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
5. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.
6. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The last enemy to be destroyed or abolished is death, according to Paul in the following passage, and those things correlate to the statement in Revelation 21:4 highlighted above and the events which follow in that chapter leading into Rev 22.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 ASV
22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
27. For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him.
28. And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

So then by the time we get to Rev 22:3 "the kingdom" is surely delivered up to the Father, (each in his or her own appointed times). If however you want to insist that you are a "son of Jesus" by your interpretation of the passages, (and specifically the statement in Rev 21:7 which by your interpretation you by default imply that "Jesus is your heavenly Father") then you might want to look up the meaning of the name "Bar-Jesus" the (word) sorcerer. Better yet I may as well just tell you now that "bar" is Aramaic for "son", and thus, "Bar-Jesus" has the meaning of "Son of Jesus", which is critical error because that spirit makes Yeshua into the Father through word sorcery, (Elymas Bar-Jesus son of Jesus the sorcerer). Also you are flat out wrong about Rev 1:8 which, by the Septuagint, is clearly the Father, "HO ON", "THE BEING", (Exodus 3:14 Septuagint Link) which is referenced in Rev 1:4 and Rev 1:8 where it reads transliterated, "Kurios ho Theos, ho-on-kai-ho-en-kai-ho-erchomenos, ho Pantokrator", (YHWH Elohim, WHO IS and who was and who is to come, the Almighty). We are not "sons of the Son" because Messiah is not ashamed to call those willing to become sanctified his brethren. Your interpretations violate most of the common teaching analogies such as even the most basic understanding of the simple relationship between Father and Son.

 

[keypurr]

I am learning a little about ARAMAIC, the English translation is something that should be in every persons library. I can see how the GREEK has distorted what is written in places. But I must read and reread to figure out the way they think.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am learning a little about ARAMAIC, the English translation is something that should be in every persons library. I can see how the GREEK has distorted what is written in places. But I must read and reread to figure out the way they think.

Thanks for the thought Keypurr. I ordered on from amazon today.

 

[keypurr]

Thanks for the thought Keypurr. I ordered on from amazon today.

I did not know Amazon sold it.

I got it at
Www. AENT.org

And it is fantastic. The notes it contains are great.
Read it with prayer my brother, it goes deep.

 

[Bright Raven]

I did not know Amazon sold it.

I got it at
Www. AENT.org

And it is fantastic. The notes it contains are great.
Read it with prayer my brother, it goes deep.

I will. Thank you again.

 

[oatmeal]

I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

My understanding of the word "create" from a Biblical usage is the opposite of popular culture.

The popular current usage of create is used of many things that already exist in some form. An artist "creates" a painting. The canvas already existed, the paint already existed, the artist and the tools already existed, the idea was not original either. What did the artist create? Nothing. He may have organized, moved, assembled, etc. but he did not bring something into existence out of nothing.

Only God creates, only God has the power to bring into existence something out of nothing.

Man cannot create, he cannot bring something into existence from nothing.

I was not created, no alive today was created. My body is made from dirt, even Adam's body was not created, God formed it from the dust of the ground. He did not create Adam's body, He formed it.

Now, where did the dust come from? That was part of the heaven and earth that God created in the beginning.

What about the soul of man? It was made, it was not created.

What about the part of man known as the image of God? Spirit to be exact, for God is spirit, John 4:24

That part was created for man. However, likewise, once the day of Pentecost arrived, the gift of holy spirit from the Holy Spirit, ie, the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ, was given it was given. God gave to us of His spirit. I John 4:13

The word teaches we were created in Christ Jesus. Our spiritual state before salvation was so decrepit that God had to create us in Christ Jesus, there was nothing there in us for Him to work with.

Our salvation is so great that it required a creative act of God to put us in Christ Jesus. That is in the body of Christ as well as in fellowship with the Father. However, being human salvation does not instantly correct any of our bad ie, evil habits or ways. We have to renew our minds to be able to walk in God's will, that is, to stay and grow in fellowship with fellow believers, God our Father and the Jesus Christ His son.

The prodigal son of the parable in Luke 15 was in fellowship but chose to leave his father and live stupidly. He was not in fellowship with his father, although he remained his son. When the son came to himself, he realized how stupid he was and returned to the father who had no problem forgiving him

In summary, what part of Jesus Christ was created if any part was created?

The body like all human and animal bodies was not created.

He did not have spirit on him until his baptism by John and that was not created, it descended upon him.

His soul was sinless, all human soul after Adam and Eve was not sinless, it was sinful. The soul of man because of A and E's error was tainted. That would not do. God created soul for Jesus Christ, thus he could be the perfect sacrifice, the innocent blood that was shed for all.

 

[oatmeal]

My understanding of the word "create" from a Biblical usage is the opposite of popular culture.

The popular current usage of create is used of many things that already exist in some form. An artist "creates" a painting. The canvas already existed, the paint already existed, the artist and the tools already existed, the idea was not original either. What did the artist create? Nothing. He may have organized, moved, assembled, etc. but he did not bring something into existence out of nothing.

Only God creates, only God has the power to bring into existence something out of nothing.

Man cannot create, he cannot bring something into existence from nothing.

I was not created, no alive today was created. My body is made from dirt, even Adam's body was not created, God formed it from the dust of the ground. He did not create Adam's body, He formed it.

Now, where did the dust come from? That was part of the heaven and earth that God created in the beginning.

What about the soul of man? It was made, it was not created.

What about the part of man known as the image of God? Spirit to be exact, for God is spirit, John 4:24

That part was created for man. However, likewise, once the day of Pentecost arrived, the gift of holy spirit from the Holy Spirit, ie, the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ, was given it was given. God gave to us of His spirit. I John 4:13

The word teaches we were created in Christ Jesus. Our spiritual state before salvation was so decrepit that God had to create us in Christ Jesus, there was nothing there in us for Him to work with.

Our salvation is so great that it required a creative act of God to put us in Christ Jesus. That is in the body of Christ as well as in fellowship with the Father. However, being human salvation does not instantly correct any of our bad ie, evil habits or ways. We have to renew our minds to be able to walk in God's will, that is, to stay and grow in fellowship with fellow believers, God our Father and the Jesus Christ His son.

The prodigal son of the parable in Luke 15 was in fellowship but chose to leave his father and live stupidly. He was not in fellowship with his father, although he remained his son. When the son came to himself, he realized how stupid he was and returned to the father who had no problem forgiving him

In summary, what part of Jesus Christ was created if any part was created?

The body like all human and animal bodies was not created.

He did not have spirit on him until his baptism by John and that was not created, it descended upon him.

His soul was sinless, all human soul after Adam and Eve was not sinless, it was sinful. The soul of man because of A and E's error was tainted. That would not do. God created soul for Jesus Christ, thus he could be the perfect sacrifice, the innocent blood that was shed for all.

You might ask where is the scripture that tells us that God created soul for Jesus Christ.

There is no scripture that says, "God created soul for Jesus Christ"

However, Since all men, as offspring of Adam and Eve, have sinned, how could anyone pass sin tainted soul to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ be a perfect sacrifice?