ECT Madists are closet Calvinists

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Tambora

Tambora

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Hi Andy.

I see attempts to discuss the similarities and differences between Calvinism and MAD.
Good.

In light of the Calvinist view of predestination, how would the following be interpreted?

Matthew 8:10-12 KJV
(10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Israel was elected.
But here we have Jesus telling one that is not elect that he has a great faith that was not found in the elect.
And Jesus "marvelled" at this.
- verse 10

Then we have many that will come and sit in the kingdom.
- verse 11

But others, already in the kingdom, will be cast out.
- verse 12

How were those that would be cast out of the kingdom (verse 12) able to get in the kingdom in the first place?
 
andyc

andyc

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Tambora said:
Hi Andy.

I see attempts to discuss the similarities and differences between Calvinism and MAD.
Good.

In light of the Calvinist view of predestination, how would the following be interpreted?

Matthew 8:10-12 KJV
(10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Israel was elected.
But here we have Jesus telling one that is not elect that he has a great faith that was not found in the elect.
And Jesus "marvelled" at this.
- verse 10

Then we have many that will come and sit in the kingdom.
- verse 11

But others, already in the kingdom, will be cast out.
- verse 12

How were those that would be cast out of the kingdom (verse 12) able to get in the kingdom in the first place?
Click to expand...

The natural offspring of Abraham who should have been the ones accepting the messiah and presenting him to the world, didn't believe.
The unbelieving Jews thought that they would inherit the kingdom because of their natural birthright. Faith was the requirement.
 
john w

john w

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andyc said:
Sorry but you're wrong.
Calvinists believe that the elect will persevere, not must persevere.
You've got the motivational perspective wrong.
Click to expand...

"Sorry"

Are you really? Is that like, "How are you doing today?"

No, you are wrong. They and you teach a subtil form of "works" based "salvation."

My brilliant/humble post stands.


And get saved, fruit inspector.
 
musterion

musterion

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Delmar said:
Actually, I do know Mid Acts dispies who lean toward Calvinism.
Click to expand...

Affirmative, sir.

Some years ago I was told that a large chunk of the Grace Gospel Fellowship was Calvinistic, which I could see for myself from their Amazing Grace devotional.

To this day, a considerable number of Berean Bible Fellowship pastors are as well, including my former pastor before I moved.

To what degree they are Calvinistic is a whole other something.
 
musterion

musterion

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Perseverance
For the MADists, OSAS is all about personal assurance. This is exactly the same for Calvinists. The believer will persevere, not must persevere.
Click to expand...
Wrong. The believer - if he is elect - will persevere because God will make him persevere, but the flipside is that he MUST seek to persevere in order to make his calling and election sure (to prove, as much as possible that he's elect). That's why Lordship Salvation exists.

MADs, on the other hand, rest in the finished work of Christ. The works we do are because we're in Him, not to remain in Him or to prove we're in Him.

You know...kinda like your "tongues" prove who is and isn't really indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Same lie, different angle.

Your ignorance compounds itself with every post. You really need to stop.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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andyc said:
The natural offspring of Abraham who should have been the ones accepting the messiah and presenting him to the world, didn't believe.
The unbelieving Jews thought that they would inherit the kingdom because of their natural birthright. Faith was the requirement.
Click to expand...
But how did those that get cast out of the kingdom get into the kingdom in the first place?
 
Delmar

Delmar

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andyc said:
Pages of people disagreeing but not challenging the point made.
Click to expand...

When somebody comes here and boldly proclaims that "the moon is made of green cheese" they tend to get the same response. :yawn:
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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Tambora said:
How were those that would be cast out of the kingdom (verse 12) able to get in the kingdom in the first place?
Click to expand...

The children of the Kingdom were cast out in 70AD.

(Gal 4:30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
 
Nang

Nang

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musterion said:
Wrong. The believer - if he is elect - will persevere because God will make him persevere, but the flipside is that he MUST seek to persevere in order to make his calling and election sure (to prove, as much as possible that he's elect). That's why Lordship Salvation exists.

MADs, on the other hand, rest in the finished work of Christ. The works we do are because we're in Him, not to remain in Him or to prove we're in Him.

You know...kinda like your "tongues" prove who is and isn't really indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Same lie, different angle.

Your ignorance compounds itself with every post. You really need to stop.
Click to expand...

"Resting" in Christ, does not mean one has any license to ignore repentance and obedience to God.

Memorize Matthew 7:21-23.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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andyc said:
Was faith gifted to you?
Click to expand...

Good thread.

I was a Dispy for 25 years.

During those years, I heard many Dispies ask fellow Dispies to pray for so and so because so and so was an unbeliever.

So, if a Dispie is praying to God for God to do something for an unbeliever, then wouldn't that advocate Calvinism?

IOW, if anyone prays for an unbeliever to come to Christ, what exactly are they asking God to do?

If people come to Christ by free volition, are they praying that God somehow does something to the person's free volition? If so, then how is that free volition?

??????
 
Simon Baker

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tetelestai said:
Good thread.

I was a Dispy for 25 years.

During those years, I heard many Dispies ask fellow Dispies to pray for so and so because so and so was an unbeliever.

So, if a Dispie is praying to God for God to do something for an unbeliever, then wouldn't that advocate Calvinism?

IOW, if anyone prays for an unbeliever to come to Christ, what exactly are they asking God to do?

If people come to Christ by free volition, are they praying that God somehow does something to the person's free volition? If so, then how is that free volition?

??????
Click to expand...


That Is Interesting. Analyzing The Prayers Of Others
 
john w

john w

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tetelestai said:
Good thread.

I was a Dispy for 25 years.

During those years, I heard many Dispies ask fellow Dispies to pray for so and so because so and so was an unbeliever.

So, if a Dispie is praying to God for God to do something for an unbeliever, then wouldn't that advocate Calvinism?

IOW, if anyone prays for an unbeliever to come to Christ, what exactly are they asking God to do?

If people come to Christ by free volition, are they praying that God somehow does something to the person's free volition? If so, then how is that free volition?

??????
Click to expand...

What are you doing on TOL, tonight, Craigie? Although you spend most of your waking hours on TOL, satisfying your obsession, unemployed, I would have thought that you'd have your eyes fixated tonight, on your favorite show of the year, "The Ocars...Academy Awards?!" After all, you've been acting like you were a member of the body of Christ for years, on TOL, Preterist Cult member.
 
Simon Baker

Simon Baker

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andyc said:
Pages of people disagreeing but not challenging the point made. It tells me that the majority of MADists here have no interest in the systematic theology of MAD. There are implications when doctrines are accepted and rejected, but most don't care about this as long as it all feels nice.
Click to expand...


It Really Does Feel Nice, To Know The Truth
 
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