andyc
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Obviously there is no time in the spiritual realm, but we cannot understand timelessness, so scripture caters to our natural mind. I hope this doesn't cue godrulz to object :chuckle:
ECT MADist thought for the day
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Obviously there is no time in the spiritual realm, but we cannot understand timelessness, so scripture caters to our natural mind. I hope this doesn't cue godrulz to object :chuckle:
John 3:13 was before the cross.
What Jesus said to Nicodemus didn't happen yet. Read the next verse
(John 3:14) Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Again, Jesus said this before the cross because Jesus knew what was going to happen.
Prior to the cross no man (including Jesus) had been to Heaven. After the cross all those in Paradise went to Heaven. In 2 Cor 12 Paul went to Heaven.
This doesn't support your theory. It doesn't mean that men can't be in Heaven.
Read 2 Cor 12. No matter how much you want to deny it, Paul went to Heaven.
SaulToPaul 2
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Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
What does BOTH dead and buried mean, regarding David?
SaulToPaul 2
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John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
SaulToPaul 2
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At the time of 2 Timothy, who else had immortality except Jesus Christ?
Again, Jesus spoke these words before the cross.
Again, read the next verse.
John 3:13 proves you are wrong.
Stephen for one.
Stephen said the following right before he died:
(Acts 7:56) “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
According to you, Stephen looked up into Heaven and saw Jesus, but then when he died he went to the center of the earth where there was no Jesus. :nono:
SaulToPaul 2
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John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
SaulToPaul 2
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1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Again, Jesus spoke these words before the cross
Stephen went to Heaven when he died.
You are taking 1 Tim 6:16 out of context.
Try a different version, maybe you would undertand it
(1 Tim 6:16) who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Stephen had eternal life through Jesus Christ. 1 Tim 6:16 says that God alone is immortal.
You are getting very desperate in defending your theories of soul sleep and Paradise.
If you didn't try making the Bible fit MAD/Bullingerism, you wouldn't have to do the things you do.
SaulToPaul 2
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Read it again.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
When did Jesus ascend up to heaven before the cross?
According to the verse, where is the Son of Man?
SaulToPaul 2
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1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Read the verse before John 3:13
(John 3:12) I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3:13 is before the cross, yet Jesus knows that He dies on the cross, is resurrected, and then ascends to Heaven. This is what Jesus means when He says "Heavenly things".
Jesus was not confined to time like we are. From our perspective no man has gone to Heaven before Jesus did. From Jesus' perspective, He could say what He said in John 3:13 because He wasn't bound by time like we are.
Again, because you try to make the Bible fit MAD/Bullingersim you have to claim that no one has ever gone to Heaven.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Read it, again.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Stephen went to Heaven
So did Paul.
Are you going to claim that Paul didn't go to Heaven?
(2 Cor 12:2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.
SaulToPaul 2
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1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
graceandpeace
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:first:
(2 Cor 12:2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.
Why do you keep ignoring Paul?
2 Cor 12:2 makes it clear that Paul visited Heaven after the cross
SaulToPaul 2
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In the spirit of not ignoring Paul, let's see what else he had to say.
2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
At the time of 1 Timothy 6, who else had immortality besides Jesus Christ, who else dwelt in the light?
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