ECT MAD is a lie and is proved to be a lie from scripture !

Lon

Lon

Well-known member
I don't cerebrate pagan holidays either...well, sometimes, when I am in a contemplative mind...anybody cerebrate May Day this year? I didn't give it much thought....
 
dodge

dodge

New member
Lon;5006996]Some of this goes back and forth and I've seen the assessments this harsh before. Listening, I've come to different conclusions and I'll share them but I am nobody that can pave a road or build a bridge. I do, however hope that it might be of help or benefit to at least a few on TOL.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response Lon. I will only answer several points points at this time as it is a lot to chew on and reflect over seeking the Lord's wisdom and direction.
Click to expand...

Paul did oppose Peter to his face. Why? For converting gentiles to Judaism proselytes.
Click to expand...

All of the Apostles had their individual failures. Paul consented to the death of Christians before Jesus broke into Paul's life on the Damascus road. Thomas denied Jesus' resurrection until he personally saw Jesus, but eventually Jesus got them on the right road.So inferring Peter was somehow tainted at a later date serves no purpose and does not detract from the gospel Peter preached does it ? That sounds harsh and I didn't mean it to be.

They do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ's universal truths. Even Dispensationalists believe that. Even Covenant, we know we gentiles are not to follow Jewish directions on all accounts. So, if we all agree, how pronounced is our disagreements over 'how much?'
Click to expand...

I was told today by a MADist that John 3:16 was only for Israel. I have no idea how many hold this erroneous opinion, but clearly some believe "all" of Jesus teachings were for Israel.

Cornelius came to Peter, so we know God was doing something. I'm not sure how MAD answers this, but I can explain that they believe the epistles of those Apostles are written primarily to Jews, because they are addressed specifically to Jews. I cannot dispute that claim, can you?
They think you and I are reading someone else's mail! :noway:
Click to expand...

I would answer this by quoting
2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I disagree with Dan, else only MAD and few others would be saved. I don't think observing a couple of Jewish customs makes us Judaized, simply because we are not becoming Jews or proselytes. Paul did baptize one gentile. Remember? That guy was accurse nor could he fall from Grace. Rather, he needed to be retaught what grace is. Sola gratia, most of us from Covenant to MAD in dispensationalism, must believe in Grace alone.
Click to expand...

Paul baptized more than 1 person Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius (1:Cor.1:14) and the household of Stephanas ( 1 Cor.1:16) Jesus instituted baptism and He Himself baptized NO ONE.


1 Corinthians 1:14-16King James Version (KJV)

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.


I disagree with MAD as well, however, I believe 1) They believe there is only one gospel today and 2) that is a clear gospel message whereby gentiles (most of us) will be saved, believing not in Paul, but the Lord Jesus Christ, for their salvation. Worth a fight? Yeah, I think it is, but I count these my brothers in Christ.
Click to expand...

I have been told by quite a few in MAD that Jesus was sent to Israel and His teachings are for Israel. IF anyone who claims to follow Jesus who Paul said to follow how exactly are they following Jesus by ignoring what Jesus taught?
I have been told by several in MAD that only the letters of Paul should be studied today, and again I have no clue how many or what % of those who hold to MAD believe that.

I disagree with this too. I don't believe Nicodemus 'could' have been born again without the Lord Jesus Christ's saving work. The Lord Jesus Christ was clearly talking about this. All of Israel were unable to grasp what the Lord Jesus Christ was saying. Though it is 'plain' to me, it was not to the Jews, including His own disciples. No Jew could 'born again' themselves. It HAD to be the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and I believe it had to be by becoming a 'new creation.'
Click to expand...

Amen !
 
Last edited:
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
dodge said:
All of the Apostles had their individual failures. Paul consented to the death of Christians before Jesus broke into Paul's life on the Damascus road. Thomas denied Jesus' resurrection until he personally saw Jesus, but eventually Jesus got them on the right road.So inferring Peter was somehow tainted at a later date serves no purpose and does not detract from the gospel Peter preached does it ? That sounds harsh and I didn't mean it to be.
Click to expand...
No, it didn't sound harsh at all. Sorry I didn't take offense? :idunno:
I disagree about Peter. I think he was told by the council in Acts, to put no burden on the gentiles but abstinence from certain sacrifices and sexual sins.


dodge said:
I was told today by a MADist that John 3:16 was only for Israel. I have no idea how many hold this erroneous opinion, but clearly some believe "all" of Jesus teachings were for Israel.
Click to expand...
This is fascinating to me. As a Calvinist, I believe in a limited atonement but believe John 3:16 HOWEVER it is John 3:16 that is used to explain an unlimited atonement. Interesting if it is "only" for Israel :think: I would have to ask, but I suspect that only a few would hold that John 3 isn't for them. We did see Dan P saying that. I agree: on a person by person basis, we'd have to ask.



dodge said:
I would answer this by quoting
2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Click to expand...
 Absolutely, but there is a difference between applying principles and direct application. For instance, John W is right about selling all I have and giving to the poor. It wasn't a command for everybody. However, there are principles of giving, not hording, and ensuring that we give to needs. Therefore, we pull indirect application as to what we observe by doing loving things. I think we are capable of incredible things, if love takes a hold of us.


dodge said:
Paul baptized more than 1 person Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius (Col.1:14) and the household of Stephanas (Col.1:16) Jesus instituted baptism and He Himself baptized NO ONE.
Click to expand...
Yep. 1 Corinthians 1:14,16 "guys."


dodge said:
I have been told by quite a few in MAD that Jesus was sent to Israel and His teachings are for Israel. IF anyone who claims to follow Jesus who Paul said to follow how exactly are they following Jesus by ignoring what Jesus taught?
Click to expand...
:think: Not sure what they mean. Dispensationalists would have to believe in a genuine kingdom offer and that He was genuinely preaching to Israel, but He also chatted with several gentiles so couldn't be "only" for Israel. He talked with a Samaritan as well. :idunno: I've seen some of them a bit hyper-hyper-MAD but I rather think it is because they are laypersons, that they don't know what MAD really is about. Danoh says this a lot. Hilston also says this as well. They challenge one another in these threads. I sit and listen most of the time.
dodge said:
I have been told by several in MAD that only the letters of Paul should be studied today, and again I have no clue how many or what % of those who hold to MAD believe that.[/COLOR][/B]
Click to expand...
Yowch! Not good. Do they mean just for new converts? What was the context?



dodge said:
Amen !
Click to expand...
 I don't think all disagree with that, perhaps they do, but I believe, especially as a Covenant Theologian, the Lord Jesus Christ had to know what He was doing and about to do, because He clearly preached about it.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
dodge said:




I was told today by a MADist that John 3:16 was only for Israel. I have no idea how many hold this erroneous opinion, but clearly some believe "all" of Jesus teachings were for Israel.
Click to expand...


Which "Israel" determines who receives the promises of John 3:16? :D

It is NOT the ethnic Israel, but the spiritual Israel (church), who will believe and never perish.



I have been told by quite a few in MAD that Jesus was sent to Israel and His teachings are for Israel. IF anyone who claims to follow Jesus who Paul said to follow how exactly are they following Jesus by ignoring what Jesus taught?
I have been told by several in MAD that only the letters of Paul should be studied today, and again I have no clue how many or what % of those who hold to MAD believe that.
Click to expand...

I thought they all believed and advocated this limited approach to study of the bible. Horrendous practice, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
I was told today by a MADist that John 3:16 was only for Israel. I have no idea how many hold this erroneous opinion, but clearly some believe "all" of Jesus teachings were for Israel.


Which MAdist?
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Lon said:
No, it didn't sound harsh at all. Sorry I didn't take offense? :idunno:
I disagree about Peter. I think he was told by the council in Acts, to put no burden on the gentiles but abstinence from certain sacrifices and sexual sins.



This is fascinating to me. As a Calvinist, I believe in a limited atonement but believe John 3:16 HOWEVER it is John 3:16 that is used to explain an unlimited atonement. Interesting if it is "only" for Israel :think: I would have to ask, but I suspect that only a few would hold that John 3 isn't for them. We did see Dan P saying that. I agree: on a person by person basis, we'd have to ask.



Absolutely, but there is a difference between applying principles and direct application. For instance, John W is right about selling all I have and giving to the poor. It wasn't a command for everybody. However, there are principles of giving, not hording, and ensuring that we give to needs. Therefore, we pull indirect application as to what we observe by doing loving things. I think we are capable of incredible things, if love takes a hold of us.


Yep. 1 Corinthians 1:14,16 "guys."


:think: Not sure what they mean. Dispensationalists would have to believe in a genuine kingdom offer and that He was genuinely preaching to Israel, but He also chatted with several gentiles so couldn't be "only" for Israel. He talked with a Samaritan as well. :idunno: I've seen some of them a bit hyper-hyper-MAD but I rather think it is because they are laypersons, that they don't know what MAD really is about. Danoh says this a lot. Hilston also says this as well. They challenge one another in these threads. I sit and listen most of the time.

Yowch! Not good. Do they mean just for new converts? What was the context?



 I don't think all disagree with that, perhaps they do, but I believe, especially as a Covenant Theologian, the Lord Jesus Christ had to know what He was doing and about to do, because He clearly preached about it.
Click to expand...


Hi and since you have said that you are a COVENANT Theologian , how do you use John 3:16 to prove Limited Atonement ??

Also , how is a person saved under A COVENANT and what COVENANT are you referring to ??

I will write a OP on John 3:16 , today !!

Just dying to hear your respond !!

dan p
 
Last edited:
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
john w said:
Who are you? Taco Tico? Why don't you call up your "main squeeze," Mayor, and suggest "Let's Head for the Border," and then take her to Taco Bell? I bet you'd get a chuckle out of that, fella, wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

Were you surprised, saint john, as I was, that cinco de mayo fell on the 5th again this year?
I know, I know, I beat all...
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
SaulToPaul said:
Were you surprised, saint john, as I was, that cinco de mayo fell on the 5th again this year?
I know, I know, I beat all...
Click to expand...

Well, Mayor, ever since I found out that Aint Bee was not everyone's aunt in Mayberry, even though almost everyone addressed her as such, nothing surprises me, fella.
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
SaulToPaul said:
I still say Fred Goss was not in her league. Nooooo sirrrreeeee. Not a'tall.
Click to expand...

Never trust anyone that wears a bow tie, Mayor, or a dry cleaner person, that smokes on the job. That's always been my motto. My momma was that way. You ain't talkin' to a jerk, ya know. No charge, squirt.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
DAN P said:
Hi and since you have said that you are a COVENANT Theologian , how do you use John 3:16 to prove Limited Atonement ??
Click to expand...
If it is only to Jews, then "All" means all Jews? For me? I rather think that all means all that God so Loved. Saved? :nono: Else you and I'd be universalists. So, for me, reconciling John 3:16 is about realizing that only those who call on the Name of the Lord, are at-one with God. The Calvinist believes that the blood of Christ is not wasted after foolishness. By this, they mean that God is omniscient, therefore He knew exactly who He atoned for. All of us, (not just Calvinists) who believe God's knowledge is exhaustively definite, believe this. I need to explain further, however:

I reconcile by this: Blood offered is both blood accepted (atonement) and blood spurned (stone of stumbling for many). Same love. His blood could and would cover all that come, even if none rejected Him. Calvinists do not argue the efficacy of Christ's work. That is never their contention and such puts us more on page with most theologians than they would understand. Limited atonement does not mean 'limited sufficiency.' Sometimes, that's the contention and argument.

DAN P said:
Also , how is a person saved under A COVENANT and what COVENANT are you refrring to ??
Click to expand...
Galatians 3:15,16-24 -see all of Galatians 3:1-29

DAN P said:
I will write a OP on John 3:16 , today !!

Just dying to hear your respond !!

dan p
Click to expand...
:up:
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
john w said:
Never trust anyone that wears a bow tie, Mayor, or a dry cleaner person, that smokes on the job. That's always been my motto. My momma was that way. You ain't talkin' to a jerk, ya know. No charge, squirt.
Click to expand...

:( I like Howard Sprague. I'd vote for him as County Clerk, even.
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Lon said:
:( I like Howard Sprague. I'd vote for him as County Clerk, even.
Click to expand...

Well, Lonster, I disagree. Another one of my motto's:never trust someone, that lives with their mother, as an adult, like Howard did.My momma kicked me out when I was able to drink my first "Schlitz Malt Liquor."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top