KJ-ONLYite claims: Enyart does not believe The Bible is inerrant

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Peter A V

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B.E.has no Bible

B.E.has no Bible

Turbo said:
:up:

Peter A V, please read this explanation of how to use the quote tags.
............
Thanks,I'm a newbie on the computer.It is a steap learning curve.This is my first 24 hours here,and it will take a bit to catch up with the rest of you.
I do the best that I can,always improving.
Thanks again,and will take it to heart,please be patient.
 

Peter A V

New member
B.E.has no Bible

B.E.has no Bible

Rimi said:
1. I found that the original KJV included the Apocrypha, and now does not. Well, if it is perfect and inspired, why there and then gone?

2. I found that there were several changes/corrections to the original KJV over the years, so what we read today is NOT the same as what was originally published.

3. I found that there are mythical creatures in KJV: unicorns an satyrs. It also mentions dragons, but I'm not sure that they're not leftover dinosaurs.

4. One word: "Easter". In Acts 12:4, KJV uses the word "Easter" and not Passover. I looked up Easter in the Strong's Exhausting (to me) Concordance and found that the translation came from the word "Pascha" (from the Hebrew "Pecach") and means "the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): -- Easter, Passover". Yet per Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, the etymology of Easter is that it comes from the name of a goddess Ostern and her festival. Why would God inspire the translators to use a pagan goddess' name and not the name of the festival He was familiar with?

Those are good questions there,Rimi.
To start with;
KJV had the Apocrapha.Yes ,that is true,but it was NEVER part of the text of the Old and New Testaments,but were inserted inbetween the Old and the New testaments just like Scofield's notes.
But the other translations get their foundation from the heretical Alexandrian Manuscripts that in clude the Apocrapha and other writings as PART of the text.They have it intermingled here and there as parts of the Old Testament right along side the other books.Some are put right in to books and added,such as in the book of Daniel.
That is not all,then they add The Shepherd of Hermas [occult material],and the Epistle of Barnabus[New Age Doctrines].

If the NIV and the ESV and all the other fake Bibles out there,were honest,they would have all of these occultic,new age additions,in their Bibles,but then the scoop would be out.And the church would be in convultions of repentance.
They are deceitful workers is obvious,or very deluded,to use this garbage as their standard,and then accuse the Holy Bible of errors?Ya right.

The text that the new versions use comes from Wescott and Hort,namely Aleph and B.Or as others term them Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.These are two of the worst pieces of scriptures around.They can't even agree two verses in a row,because they are so corrupt.

Vaticanus
B agrees with the Texus Receptus only about 50% of the time.
It differs from the Majority Greek in nearly 8,000 places,amountint to about one change per verse.
It omits several thousand key words from the Gospels,nearly 1,000 complete sentences,and 500 clauses.It adds aproximately 500 words,substitutes or modifies nearly 2,000 and transposes word order in about 2,000 places.It has nearly 600 readings that do not occur in ant other manuscript.These affect almost 1,000 words.

Liguistic scholars reveal that Vaticanus is reminisent of classical Platonic Greek and NOT Koine Greek of the New Testament.Then Nestle uses deceit and changes Aleph and B to make it appear like Koine.

Plus scientists note that B was written on vellum scrolls not the paprus of the early church christians.

B does not consider the following to be part of the Bible;
Revelation
Phil.,
Titus
I & II Tim
Large parts of Samuel,Kings,Nehemiah,the Psalms,and Genesis.
B omits crutial parts of Mark and Luke.
In their place it adds Apocraphal books such as Bel and the Dragon,
Tobit,Judith
Epistle of Barnabus
In Job,for example,it has 400 half verses of Theodotian,a follower of Blavatsky's friend Marcion the heretic.

B agrees with Origen's Hexapla omiting the deity of Christ frequently and making other Gnostic and Arian alterations.
Info by NABV Gail Riplinger,pg551,552

Aleph,Sinaiticus;
..Careless transcription...14,800 places where some alteration has been made to the text..the original reading in the manuscript was erased.
Scrivener's collation and other reasearchers find;
There are 9,000 changes in this text from that of the Majority and Traditional text,amounting to one difference per verse[perverse].
It omits some 4,000 words from the Gospels,adds 1,000,repositions 2,000 and altars another 1,000.
It has approximately 1,500 readings that appear in no other manuscript;this affects nearly 3,000 words.
Just a few examples of omissions;
The end of Mark and John
39 words from Jn 19:20,21
20 words from Jn 20:5,6
19 words from Mk 1:32-34
14 words from Mk 15:47
Jn 5:4
Matt 16:2,3
Rom 16:24
Mark 16:9-20
I Jn 5:7
Acts 8:37
Gen23:19-24,46
Num 5:27-7:20
I Cron 9:27-19:27
Exodus,
Joshua
I & II Samuel
I & II Kings
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Ezek
Dan
Judges
Aleph adds Apocraphal books;
Bel and the Dragon
Tobit
Judith
The Epistle of Barnabus
The Shephers of Hemas and others.
 

Peter A V

New member
B.E.has no Bible

B.E.has no Bible

Rimi said:
2. I found that there were several changes/corrections to the original KJV over the years, so what we read today is NOT the same as what was originally published.
.......................
That is a great question Rimi.
Actually the 1611 version of today is the very same as that of the year 1611.
The only changes that were done wre that of Typographical errors[some 400].
All the rest were of the changing to modern font that we can read more readily,such as the letter 's' and 'u' for ' v ' etc.And changes that appeared in the text was quickly put back to the original.
So don't get sucked into that lie.The NIV recently said that they would make no new changes in the text,but shucks,had to recant a few days later,for they did make more changes after all.
Avoid them that are given to change.

You can read a 1611 Bible and a modern 2005 edition of the 1611 Bible and it would read word for word.Try it out and see.I have.I yse my photographic reproduction [1611]and compare it to todays KJV,and find it to be word for word perfect.Just as God would have it to be,amen?

If there was two hundred people at chuch and 100 read from the 1611 original,and the other 100 read from today's 2005 edition by Cambridge of the 1611,they would be raeding word for word the same.
Let us speak the same things,mind the same things,the same spirit.Amen?
 
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Justin (Wiccan)

New member
Peter A V said:
Actually the 1611 version of today is the very same as that of the year 1611.
The only changes that were done wre that of Typographical errors[some 400].

Typographical errors in an inerrant document? :nono:

Justin
 

brandplucked

New member
Inerrant Bible

Inerrant Bible

Turbo said:
How about the New Testament quotes that match the Septuagint rather than the Hebrew texts?

One can find "various scholars" who endorse any variety of wacky ideas.

We generally encourage dialogue at TOL rather than posting links to arguments made elsewhere.

He's on KLTT from 3:00 to 3:30 PM, Mountain Time.

Again, any idea when that call was from two years ago? Do you happen to at least remember the month or the season?


Hi Turbo, I'm confused;-) If I post a response to the examples of alleged errors in the KJB and questions that arise (which most often require more than a simple sentence or two) I get criticized for making a long post. Then if I post a link to an article I myself wrote which addresses the very thing you bring up, then I get criticized for posting a link.

You just asked about the N.T. and the supposed LXX. I posted links to these examples, but you don't like links. If I answer your question, it necessarily will have to be a very long answer. Some people are never happy with anything, I guess ;-)

Sorry, I do not remember the month when I last talked to Bob.

Blessings,

Will
 

brandplucked

New member
Brother Bob Enyart has no inerrant Bible

Brother Bob Enyart has no inerrant Bible

Bob Enyart said:
As master of the univ... er, a... as a newly ordained forum moderator, I renamed this thread. Why? I am trying hard to get more people to consider our Open Letter to Dobson exposing that most all Republican Judges are pro-choice. And with this thread title as it was, Bob Enyart does not believe The Bible is inerrant, the average born-again Christian *WHO AGREES WITH ME* against KJOnly, will see that thread title, and just that may prompt him to leave the forum, *EVEN THOUGH HE ACTUALLY AGREES WITH ME AGAINST KJONLY*, and he would then never even learn what your actual allegation against me is. And in the process, someone your misleading title would chase away might never see our desperate argument about the failed Christian political strategy. So, if you're in the BEL forum, and if I retain this new-found power, I suggest you do not mislead anyone with your thread titles. (Will, I realize of course that you can't possibly even imagine what I'm talking about. But hey, I said it anyway.) -Bob

Hi Bob, I'm sorry to hear you opine that I could not possibly imagine what you are talking about. I will, however, admit to some confusion. I initially stated that you do not believe the Bible IS (notice the tense of the verb, present tense) the inerrant word of God.

I still maintain this, and you have demonstrated that this is your present position regarding the Bible. You said I misrepresented your point of view. Again, I ask, How have I misrepresented what you believe? You tell us "ONLY THE ORIGINALS were inspired and inerrant."

Brother Bob, when all those seminary students (85% of them) said they do not believe the Scriptures are inerrant, they were not referring to the non-existent and unknown "originals". They are referring to any Bible in any language that is written down on paper and ink, that we can pick up with our hands and read.

You do not believe there is any Bible TODAY that IS NOW the inerrant, inspired, complete and pure word of God. Why not just come out and admit that this is your position?

Your position is that of the majority of Christians today. It basically is this: "Once upon a time, and far, far away, there probably were (though we cannot prove this) a group of inspired writings. These never were collected to form a single Book, but IF they had been, then they would have been The Inspired Bible. Unfortunately, no such thing exits today, and all we have is a best guess, ballpark approximation of what God may or may not have said. Also, unfortunately, there are great and widespread differences of scholarly opinions about which parts might be genuine and which are not. However, we can only hope that God did not exaggerate too much when He said He would preserve His words (apparently He hasn't done a very good job of this), and that we have enough of the inspired words of God that most likely are reasonably accurate so that we can have a pretty good idea of what we believe and hope is true."


Bob, what about all those promises in the Book where God tells us He would preserve His words, and that heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not pass away? Was God lying, exaggeratting or just kidding?

Most Christians today will tell us that God did preserve His words "somewhere out there" in all the conflicting manuscripts, and it is a big puzzle to put them back together somehow. This is like saying God's preserved words are in Webster's dictionary - they are in there somewhere mixed up with a bunch of words that are not His and out of order, but Hey, they are there.


Dear brother, we do not need to be textual experts or learned linguists to discern the truth. The fact is, a false witness is known by the lies he tells. He will often tell the truth. If he ALWAYS lied, then no one would be deceived by him. So, he tells the truth many times, and then mixes in the lies. A true prophet of God had to be 100% correct all the time, or he was to be rejected. The same is true of God's perfect words. ONLY the King James Bible passes the test. All other versions contain proveable false statements and doctrines to some degree.


I also object to another point in your response. (Besides the one about my not possibly being able to imagine the lofty heights of your thinking processes). You seem to be implying that all this stuff about the Bible being the inspired, inerrant and complete words of God is just a minor issue of no real importance, but the thing we should be concentrating on is the Christianpolitical agenda.

Bob, you have been backed into a corner, and you are now trying to point a finger and say: "Hey, look over there. What's that?"


Believing the Book I hold in my hands,

Will Kinney
 

brandplucked

New member
The Apocrypha

The Apocrypha

Rimi said:
I'm not a scholar and I'd like not to get trounced for really wanting to understand this better. I really want to know some things about KJV only-ism. I have questions if someone could help out. . . .

1. I found that the original KJV included the Apocrypha, and now does not. Well, if it is perfect and inspired, why there and then gone?

2. I found that there were several changes/corrections to the original KJV over the years, so what we read today is NOT the same as what was originally published.

3. I found that there are mythical creatures in KJV: unicorns an satyrs. It also mentions dragons, but I'm not sure that they're not leftover dinosaurs.

4. One word: "Easter". In Acts 12:4, KJV uses the word "Easter" and not Passover. I looked up Easter in the Strong's Exhausting (to me) Concordance and found that the translation came from the word "Pascha" (from the Hebrew "Pecach") and means "the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): -- Easter, Passover". Yet per Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, the etymology of Easter is that it comes from the name of a goddess Ostern and her festival. Why would God inspire the translators to use a pagan goddess' name and not the name of the festival He was familiar with?


Hi Rimi, thanks for your questions. Again, rather than posting long articles, may I again suggest you go to my webpage. There I answer the common complaint about Easter, and I have an article about your "mythical creatures". Please read them before you bring up one of the usual litany of alleged errors in the King James Bible. If you still have a question regarding them, then ask away.

Sometimes I do not respond, like when I explain the issue of "Thou shalt not kill" and then someone comes back with the usual questions I already answered. If they do not "get it", then there is little use in going over the same things again and again.


Now, for the usual Apocryha question. Sorry it is so long for the MTV crowd, but it requires a bit of background and historical facts.

WHY DID THE 1611 KJV INCLUDE THE APOCRYPHA?

Early editions of the King James Bible, as well as many other English-language Bibles of the past, including the Wycliffe Bible (1382), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Great Bible (1539), the Geneva Bible (1560), the Bishop's Bible (1568), the Douay-Rheims Bible (1609), and the Authorized Version 1611, and the German Luther, all contained the Apocrypha, but these books were included for historical reference only, not as additions to the canon of Scripture.

If you look at a copy of the original 1611 King James Bible, the book of Malachi ends with these words: "The end of the Prophets". Then the whole Apocrypha, which itself means "unknown, or spurious" is clearly marked off from the rest of the Scriptures by the words "Apocrypha" twice at the top of every page throughout. It then ends with these words: "The end of Apocrypha". Then on the next page is an elaborate woodcutting and it says: "The Newe Testament of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

It is ironic and somewhat hypocritical of those who criticize the KJB for including the Apocrypha in its earlier printings, when they usually favor the modern English versions like the NASB, RSV, ESV, NIV. These versions are based primarily on Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, which actually contain the Apocrypha books and then some others as well mixed up within and scattered throughout the rest of the Old Testament Scriptures with no separation indicating that they are less than inspired and authoritative.

Alexander McClure, a biographer of the KJV translators, says: "...the Apocryphal books in those times were more read and accounted of than now, though by no means placed on a level with the canonical books of Scripture" (McClure, Translators Revived, p. 185). He then lists seven reasons assigned by the KJV translators for rejecting the Apocrypha as canonical.

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England clearly states that the Apocrypha have no scriptural authority. "...[the Church of England] doth not apply to them to establish any doctrine."

The Westminster Confession, which was written in England between 1643-48, only a few years after the publication of the King James Bible, says, "The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon of the Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings."

Martin Luther included a note on the Apocrypha that stated, "These are books not to be held in equal esteem with those of Holy Scripture..."

It is also important to understand that in the early King James Bibles, the Apocryphal books were placed between the Old and New Testaments rather than intermingled within the O.T. itself as is done in Catholic Bibles. In the Jerusalem Bible (a Catholic Bible), for example, Tobit, Judith, and the Maccabees follow Nehemiah; the Book of Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus follow Ecclesiastes; Baruch follows Lamentations; etc.

The Apocrypha was never considered canonical by the Church of England or the KJV translators. It was only included in the Reformation Bibles (and not only in the KJV) for historical reference, much as notes, etc. are included in modern study Bibles.


Final Authority, p. 166-167, W. P. Grady, “Now of the many issues raised against the King James Bible, none is so hypocritical as that of the Apocrypha question. A typical example of Nicolaitan desperation is the sarcastic barb of Robert L. Sumner who wrote: “It is also interesting-and perhaps you are not aware of it-that the early editions of the Authorized Version contained the Apocrypha. Horrors!”

Although it is technically correct that the first editions of the King James Bible contained the Apocrypha, the complete picture is rarely given. What Dr. Sumner conveniently failed to mention is that the translators were careful to set these spurious books apart from the inspired text by inserting them between the Testaments. And to insure that there was no misunderstanding, they listed seven reasons why the apocryphal books were to be categorically rejected as part of the inspired canon.”

The Answer Book, p. 99-100, S. C. Gipp, “Question #34: QUESTION: Didn't the King James Bible when first printed contain the Apocrypha? ANSWER: Yes. EXPLANATION: Many critics of the perfect Bible like to point out that the original King James had the Apocrypha in it as though that fact compromises its integrity. But several things must be examined to get the factual picture.

First, in the days in which our Bible was translated, the Apocrypha was accepted reading based on its historical value, though not accepted as Scripture by anyone outside of' the Catholic church. The King James translators therefore placed it between the Old and New Testaments for its historical benefit to its readers. They did not integrate it into the Old Testament text as do the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts.
That they rejected the Apocrypha as divine is very obvious by the seven reasons which they gave for not incorporating it into the text. They are as follows:

1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.
5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.
6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.

If having the Apocrypha between the Testaments disqualifies it as authoritative, then the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt must be totally worthless since their authors obviously didn't have the conviction of the King James translators and incorporated its books into the text of the Old Testament thus giving it authority with Scripture.”

Two of the most important Greek manuscripts for modern textual criticism are Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. Vaticanus contains all of the Apocrypha with the exception of 1 and 2 Maccabees and the Prayer of Manasses. Sinaiticus contains all of the Old Testament Apocrypha books as well as the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas in the New Testament. (see A General Introduction To The Bible, by Geisler and Nix, Moody Press, pp.271-274; or The Text Of The New Testament, by Aland, Eerdmans Press, pp.107-109.)

QUESTION: Since the Greek texts of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus contain the Apocrypha as part of its text, and these two manuscripts are used for the basis of most modern Greek texts and English translations, is not your question a little misleading? Why would you reject the original KJV for having the Apocrypha between the Testaments while accepting ancient uncial manuscripts which contained the Apocrypha as part of the text?

The books of the Apocrypha were included in the King James Version from the first as a matter of course, as they had been in all versions of the English Bible from the time of Wycliffe (c. 1384), including Miles Coverdale 1535, and the Calvinist Geneva Bible of 1560. ... The deliberate omission of the Apocrypha from an English Bible is first noted in the 1640 edition of the Geneva Bible, ... Not until the nineteenth century, however, did the omission of the Apocrypha in Protestant Bibles become normal.

The feelings of the KJV translators, some of whom were Puritans, must necessarily be the same as those who produced the Westminster Confession of Faith (1645). In no uncertain terms, the Westminster divines wrote,

The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon of the Scripture, and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings (WCF 1:3).


In His grace,

Will Kinney
 

brandplucked

New member
John 1:18 the only begotten Son

John 1:18 the only begotten Son

godrulz said:
Bahahaha...

You have just made a rookie exegetical error that a first year Greek student would know. Try doing a word study and you will see that the NIV is actually more accurate than the KJV here....

'monogenes' means unique, one and only...


Hi Godrulz, there is a lot of misinformation in your post, but I will specifcally address John 1:18. Now, after reading this "long" article ( I hope it is not too much for you to handle at one time), then maybe you can tell us if you believe The Bible IS now the inerrant word of God, and if so, which one. Thanks,

Will

JOHN 1:18

"No man hath seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 1:18 presents us with a classical case of confusion caused by the modern Bible correctors. The phrase in question is "the only begotten Son." There are two variants here: one with the Greek text and the other with the translation.

The Greek of the Traditional Text reads, "o monogenes huios" (the only begotten Son). The Greek of the Alexandrian Text reads, "o monogenes theos" (the only begotten God). Additionally, the Greek word "monogenes" is no longer looked upon by some as meaning "only begotten" but is now considered better translated as "unique" or "one and only." However there is much disagreement among today's "scholars" as to which text to adopt and how to translate it.

Notice the total confusion that exists in the multitude of modern bible versions today.

1. "The only begotten Son"- King James Bible, Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, Daniel Mace New Testament 1729, Wesley's N.T. 1755, the Revised Version 1881, American Standard Version 1901, Webster's 1833 translation, Darby 1890, Young's, Douay 1950, Spanish Reina Valera 1960, Italian Diodati 1602, Luther's German Bible 1517, the NKJV 1982, Third Millenium Bible, and KJV 21.

Even the RV and ASV, which introduced thousands of radical changes in the New Testament based on the Alexandrian texts, did not follow Sinaiticus/Vaticanus here but stuck with the Traditional Text. It wasn't till the NASB appeared on the scene that the false reading of "the only begotten God" was introduced.

2. "The only begotten God" NASB

3. "God the only Son" NIV 1973

4. "God the One and Only" NIV 1984 with a footnote "or only begotten"

5. "but the one and only Son, who is himself God" TNIV 2001 with footnote "some manuscripts - but the only Son".

The 1973 and 1977 NIV's read, "No MAN has ever seen God, but God the only [Son], who is at the Father's side, has made him known". The 1978 and 1984 NIV editions now read, "No ONE has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Thus, the NIV has been revised and changed " no man" to "no one", altered "only" to "One and Only" and omitted [Son]. Then the TNIV further changes "One and Only" to "one and only" and again adds "Son".

These next three are all related to one another as each is a revision of the last one in line, yet they all three differ from each other. See how consistent modern scholars are.

6. "the only Son" RSV 1952. The liberal RSV was the first major English version to translate monogenes as "only" rather than the traditional and more accurate "only begotten", but yet it retained the word Son rather than God.

7. "God the only Son" NRSV 1989

8. "the only God" English Standard Version 2001

9. "the one and only Son" Hebrew Names Version,

10. "God's only Son" New English Bible

11. "the only conceived Son" World English Bible

Several of these modern version don't follow any Greek text at all but combine divergent readings from different texts, such as the NIV 1973, TNIV, the NRSV, and the New English Bible.

The King James Bible is the correct reading both as to text and meaning. The Alexandrian texts which read "the only begotten GOD, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" teach that there are two gods and one of them is inferior to the other. There is the God whom nobody has seen and then there is the only begotten God who has explained the unseen God. The only other version I know of that reads this way, besides the NASB, is the Jehovah Witness New World Translation, which says: "the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."

One of the newest in the long line of bible revisions, the English Standard Version, reads: "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." This is totally absurd. It teaches not only that there are two Gods, the one nobody has ever seen, and the one who has made the unseen God known; but one of them is God and the other is the only God.

Jesus Christ is by nature very God of very God. John 1 says "the Word was God". Notice it does not say the Word was THE God. God is triune yet one. If it had said "the Word was THE God" it would be a theological error. All that God is in the three Persons is not limited to the Word, but the Word (Jesus Christ) is by very nature God.

What the ESV teaches is a confusion of the nature of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is not "THE ONLY GOD" who makes known the God no one has seen. Jesus Christ is God by nature, but He is not the Father nor the Holy Ghost.

We now have two more late$t and greate$t ver$ion$ coming on the scene. The ISV or International Standard Version and the Holman Christian Standard Bible.

The ISV reads: " No one has ever seen God. The UNIQUE God, (Other mss. read Son) who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him." Again, we have two Gods. One nobody has ever seen and then the "unique" God! Does this mean the God no one has seen is just an ordinary, run-of-the- mill, garden variety god, while the other one is totally unique?

But wait, the newest of them all is the up and coming Holman Christian Standard Bible, and it says: "No one has ever seen God. The only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him." Hey, this one went back to the reading of "Son" instead of "God". What gives here?

Those versions that teach that Jesus Christ is the "only Son" or "the one and only Son" are also incorrect in that angels are also called sons of God and so are Adam and all of God's other children. In either case, the corrupt and confusing readings found in many modern bible versions diminish the glory of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity is turned on its head.

The Nicene Creed (344 AD) states:

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, . . . And in His Only-begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ, who before all ages was begotten from the Father, God from God, Light from Light, by whom all things were made, in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible . . ." (as cited from Athanasius: De Synodis, II:26).

The Old Latin manuscripts of John 1:18, which precede anything we have in Greek, read, "deum nemo uidit umquam. unigenitus filius. qui est in sinu patris. ipse narrauit." The word "unigenitus" means, "only begotten, only; of the same parentage." (Dr. John C. Traupman, Latin Dictionary, 323).

In 202 AD, Irenaeus wrote,

"For 'no man,' he says, 'hath seen God at any time,' unless 'the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him].' For He, the Son who is in His bosom, declares to all the Father who is invisible."(Against Heresies, 3:11:6)

In 324 AD, Alexander of Alexandria wrote:

"Moreover, that the Son of God was not produced out of what did not exist, and that there never was a time when He did not exist, is taught expressly by John the Evangelist, who writes this of Him: 'The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.' The divine teacher, because he intended to show that the Father and the Son are two and inseparable from each other, does in fact specify that He is in the bosom of the Father." (W.A. Jurgens, The Faith Of The Early Fathers, Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, p. 300)

Ambrose (397 AD) writes,

"For this reason also the evangelist says, 'No one has at any time seen God, except the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him.' 'The bosom of the Father,' then, is to be understood in a spiritual sense, as a kind of innermost dwelling of the Father's love and of His nature, in which the Son always dwells. Even so, the Father's womb is the spiritual womb of an inner sanctuary, from which the Son has proceeded just as from a generative womb."(The Patrarches, 11:51).

Finally, Augustine (430 AD) wrote:

"For Himself hath said: No man hath seen God at any time, but the Only-Begotten Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. Therefore we know the Father by Him, being they to whom He hath declared Him."(Homilies On The Gospel According To St. John, XLVII:3)

The point is that most of the early Theologians in the Church not only recognized that monogenes means "only begotten," and defined it as such, but that the popular reading was "only begotten Son."

"In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." Westminster Confession, Chapter III.

In spite of some Greek lexicons, like Thayer's, which insist the meaning of monogenes is "unique" or "one of a kind", there are many others like Kittel's, Liddel and Scott and Vine's that tell us the Greek word monogenes emphatically means "only begotten" and not "one and only". It is significant that Thayer did not believe that Jesus Christ was God.

In Kittel's massive work Volume 4 page 741 the writer says: "In John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9 monogenes denotes more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus. In all these verses He is expressly called the Son. (notice he does not accept the false reading of 'God' in 1:18, and he states this on the previous page). In John monogenes denotes the origen of Jesus as the only begotten."

Even the modern Greek language dictionary, which has nothing to do with the Bible, says that monogenes means "only begotten", and not unique. The Greek word for "unique" or "one and only" is a very different and specific word - monodikos - not monogenes.

The translators of the King James Version were not unaware that monogenes can also be translated as "only" for they did so in Luke 7:12; 8:42; and 9:38, all of which refer to an only child and thus they were the only begotten, not an unique child.

Some who criticize the KJB tell us that the word means "unique" and they refer to Hebrews 11:17 where we are told: "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." They point out that Isaac was not the only son of Abraham at the time, but that Ishmael had already been born of Abraham's union with Hagar. However a look at the text itself in Genesis 22:2,12 and 16 shows that God referred to Isaac as "thine ONLY son Isaac". Ishmael is not even taken into consideration by God since he was not the promised seed with whom God made the covenant of grace. As far as God was concerned, there was only one "only begotten son" of Abraham, and he is the spiritual type of the only begotten Son of God who became the lamb that was sacrificed for the sins of God's people.

The King James Bible is correct as always, and the divergent and contradictory readings in most modern versions are wrong.

NICENE CREED 325 A.D. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER BEFORE ALL WORLDS God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made;

CHALCEDON CREED 451 A.D. Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER BEFORE THE AGES.

ATHANASIA CREED 500 A.D. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, NOT MADE NOR CREATED BUT BEGOTTEN. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father, BEGTOTTEN BEFORE THE WORLDS, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.

The BELGIC CONFESSION 1561 We believe that Jesus Christ, according to his divine nature, is the only Son of God-- ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE NOR CREATED, for then he would be a creature. He is one in essence with the Father; coeternal; the exact image of the person of the Father.

The 39 ARTICLES OF RELIGION 1571 Article II The Son, which is the Word of the Father, BEGOTTEN FROM EVERLASTING OF THE FATHER, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION 1646 In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; THE SON IS ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

LONDON BAPTIST CONFESSION 1689 In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; THE SON IS ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Will Kinney

For another great article written by Scott Jones dealing with the modern mistranslation of monogenes, please go to this site.

http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/ScottJones/monogenes.htm

And for Scott's article showing the assault on the Only Begotten Son of God in John 1:18 please go to this site.

http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/ScottJones/begotten_son.htm

Excellent long article on John 1:18 by Jesse Boyd here http://www.biblebelieversbaptist.org/monogenes.htm

John 1:18 The only begotten Son
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Article is too long. The issue I am concerned about is the actual meaning of 'monogenes'. It cannot be split and transliterated in that form i.e. mono=one gennao= beget. The word carries meaning that is different than an artificial split. "prototokos' comes out 'firstborn', but means preeminent, not literally 'first' 'born' or first created.

The evidence for Son vs God is another issue.
 

brandplucked

New member
Why only the King James Bible?

Why only the King James Bible?

godrulz said:
I believe he prefers NKJV. I am sure this is an improvement on a dated, but beautiful KJV. The MSS and scholarship evidence has improved over the centuries (not to mention that the English language has evolved).

BTW, if KJV is so infallible, what do we do for the milliona of non-English people in the world in various cultures? It is better to work from the Hebrew and Greek in coming up with their translations, than the KJV. Translators do not speak archaic English. Should we teach everyone Elizabethan English or does it make more sense to translate in modern English based on the best and oldest MSS?

Hi GR, when you say " It is better to work from the Hebrew and Greek", you are in fact telling us nothing at all. There is no THE Hebrew and THE Greek. You should know this.

The fact is, ONLY the KIng James Bible was the one God used for the modern missionary movement from about 1750 till the mid 1900's, and it was the King James Bible either directly or the texts that underlie the KJB that were used in all foreign language translations. No other Bible in history has been used in this way.

God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible, but He did promise to preserve His words in a Book. I believe He did this. You do not. To the degree that a foreign language Bible uses the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts and contains the same meanings as found in the KJB, to that degree they can be correctly called the perfect words of God.

You do not have to have a perfect Bible to get saved. The gospel is still found in the poorest of translations and God is calling His people out of every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue.

The central isssue is this: If there a Bible on this earth that can correctly be called The infallible, complete and inerrant words of God? I say, Yes, and it is called the King James Holy Bible. What do you say? "Only in the originals"? "Out there somewhere"? "Who knows and who cares? Let's talk politics."?


Will Kinney
 

AVBunyan

New member
Only the Originals Inspired?

Only the Originals Inspired?

Some folks here seem to think I'm a bit odd for believing the italicized words and punctuation mraks in a King James Bible are inspired along with the rest of the text I hold in my hands..

Ok then, would somebody mind showing me where in any Bible does it say that only the originals are inspired.

And while you are at it - where did this teaching originate that only the originals were inspired? Now I believe they were but why only the originals? Where does this teaching come from?
I guess I'm confused - I figured that God ran things and could figure out a way to get the Greek/Hebrew into English?

Thanks and God bless
:wave2:
 

brandplucked

New member
the only begotten Son

the only begotten Son

godrulz said:
Article is too long. The issue I am concerned about is the actual meaning of 'monogenes'. It cannot be split and transliterated in that form i.e. mono=one gennao= beget. The word carries meaning that is different than an artificial split. "prototokos' comes out 'firstborn', but means preeminent, not literally 'first' 'born' or first created.

The evidence for Son vs God is another issue.


Hi gr, Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but realize that even the NASB and many other Bible translations differ from what you think it should mean. If you had bothered to actually read my article on John 1:18 you would see this. I guess your approach is, "My mind is made up; don't confuse me with facts."

As for the word "firstborn", check out all the other translations. You are just giving us your own opinion, and many others disagree with you. Maybe you should write your own bible version. But wait. That is almost happening now. If you don't like this one, then go for that one over there. Every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

I do agree with you that Firstborn means preeminence, but all you have to do is read and believe the Bible to see how the word is used. Psalm 89:27 for example.

Which version out there do you think is the inspired, inerrant word of God? Let me guess. None of them. Right? The only one that's right is that mystical one you have in your imagination, and it, of course, differs from all the others.

We live in interesting times.

Will K
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
brandplucked said:
Hi GR, when you say " It is better to work from the Hebrew and Greek", you are in fact telling us nothing at all. There is no THE Hebrew and THE Greek. You should know this.

The fact is, ONLY the KIng James Bible was the one God used for the modern missionary movement from about 1750 till the mid 1900's, and it was the King James Bible either directly or the texts that underlie the KJB that were used in all foreign language translations. No other Bible in history has been used in this way.

God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible, but He did promise to preserve His words in a Book. I believe He did this. You do not. To the degree that a foreign language Bible uses the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts and contains the same meanings as found in the KJB, to that degree they can be correctly called the perfect words of God.

You do not have to have a perfect Bible to get saved. The gospel is still found in the poorest of translations and God is calling His people out of every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue.

The central isssue is this: If there a Bible on this earth that can correctly be called The infallible, complete and inerrant words of God? I say, Yes, and it is called the King James Holy Bible. What do you say? "Only in the originals"? "Out there somewhere"? "Who knows and who cares? Let's talk politics."?


Will Kinney

Your claims for KJV sound like the LDS claims about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's Inspired Version (based on KJV). I will side with the original autograph position, and still trust and compare credible translations based on sound scholarship and MSS evidence.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
AVBunyan said:
Some folks here seem to think I'm a bit odd for believing the italicized words and punctuation mraks in a King James Bible are inspired along with the rest of the text I hold in my hands..

Ok then, would somebody mind showing me where in any Bible does it say that only the originals are inspired.

And while you are at it - where did this teaching originate that only the originals were inspired? Now I believe they were but why only the originals? Where does this teaching come from?
I guess I'm confused - I figured that God ran things and could figure out a way to get the Greek/Hebrew into English?

Thanks and God bless
:wave2:


Punctuation and capitals were not in original MSS. There are also vowel issues in Hebrew, leading to some uncertainty in some cases. I suppose you think the chapter and verse additions are also inspired?
 

AVBunyan

New member
Only the originals?

Only the originals?

godrulz said:
1. Punctuation and capitals were not in original MSS. There are also vowel issues in Hebrew, leading to some uncertainty in some cases.
2. I suppose you think the chapter and verse additions are also inspired?
1. I know that - so?

2. What if I do - can you prove they aren't?

Again, with feeling, who taught you that only the originals are inspired?

Why do you and others limit God so?

You can trust God with your salvation but you can't believe God could oversee the AV committee in 1611. Don't you believe God is sovereign or do you leave it all up to man? Strange...

God bless :banana:
 
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