I read this post as if a robot wrote it, without any inflection. And you know what? You make a lot more sense now.
JESUS IS NOT YHWH
- Thread starter KingdomRose
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KingdomRose
New member
Nihilo.....What would I learn sitting at the feet of Rodrigo Borgia? (Pope Alexander VI)
Lon
Well-known member
Really? Did you READ them???
:nono: Colossians 1:16-18 with Psalm 33:6; 121:2
Isn't it ODD, that Jews who become Christians, are all Trinitarian???
You'd think the ones able to read Hebrew would know better and they'd become Unit-Arian... :think: :nono:
Just say "Man." It'll be quicker to your denial. Man is a creature.
"Without" controversy, God became a man. 1 Timothy 3:16 John 1:1;14 Philippians 2:6 1 Corinthians 15:47 Romans 9:5 (Messiah is God! EXACTLY what this thread says He isn't :doh: ) Acts 20:28 Dismiss them/ignore them/rewrite them to your own detriment.
Romans 9:5 Yes He is.
You have to be careful, because you aren't being as ungracious as it appears. You said you believe in the "Word" pre-existent. Simply saying "Jesus" will have many Trinitarians thinking you are insane and not because of your belief on this as much as poor communication. You do NOT believe the Word was mere flesh/man and that he died but flesh/man. If you do, now is the point to declare it. It is because of poor explanation that many are against you. I 'think' I know what you mean and do not mean, but others will be greatly offended and needlessly, simply because I think you've been careless and need to be more exacting in the future. People will flat out call you a heretic for this little portion of badly worded sentence, and rightly so, you need to be careful.
Asserting is "stating an opinion with nothing to back it up but one's weightless hopes and disheveled strands, that can never be offered up for anything but empty vibrato."
Yep, not singled out against the backdrop of His deity, however. :nono:
That's why I keep spoon feeding it back into your mouth. You are cantankerous. Perhaps you'll listen to a Christian Jew, where you wouldn't listen to me. Gotquestions.org says clearly that Jesus claimed to be God. Sadly, you never read what others think, just what you, and those like you think.
I cannot fathom, in the light of the Resurrection, that what you're saying is true!
There's absolutely no way I can believe that things are as terrible as you say, in the light of the Resurrection! Now, come on! How can you believe, that the Lord rose from the dead, He emerged from the tomb, and now the whole world is censored? How? You are painting for us the darkest, harshest, bleakest of all possible realities and worldviews! HOW can it be true, if HE IS RISEN!It can't be. The Resurrection demands of me that I see things in the light of miracles, and in that light, there's no reason on the merits to accept your view, and plus, your view is very dark and gloomy and depressing and horrible. He is Risen. That's Good News! I'm going to choose to be happy about good news, and live as happily as I can, because of this Good News, and I don't understand for the life of me, why you wouldn't also?
He is risen! :chuckle:
You learn so very much as people argue here. The Jesus is YHWH, Ressurection teachers have faith that God is so Loving that He is Self-sacrificing. This equates to salvation on a magnificent scale.
The Jesus is not YHWH teachers tend to marginalize the Ressurection and God's willingness to have a relationship with us.
Very rarely do the not YHWH types understand forgiveness and unmerited favor. Sometimes, in a blue moon, but rarely.
The Jesus is not YHWH teachers tend to marginalize the Ressurection and God's willingness to have a relationship with us.
Very rarely do the not YHWH types understand forgiveness and unmerited favor. Sometimes, in a blue moon, but rarely.
The "Jesus is not YHWH" people do not want to become the "Bar-Jesus son of Jesus" people.
I'm glad you asked for clarification. Get yourself a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, available in paperback mass market edition for under 15 dollars if you're lucky, and not much more if you're not. Or you can find it online at the popes' own website vatican-dot-va, for the cost of your internet access. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p2.htm
Do you think Borgia believed the Resurrection? How could you tell?
The "Jesus is not YHWH" people do not want to become the "Bar-Jesus son of Jesus" people.
You do not believe Jesus was divine?
Acts 13:9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?
Path and way refers to the saving Divinity of Jesus and the work of Salvation through His crucifixion, Spiritual Warfare in His preaching to the prisoners of Sheol in Spirit and the full power of His Ressurection.
Michael was able to banish the Dragon from Heaven because of this.
God was restored as our mediator, instead of the carnal destroyer. Why would you associate this with people that uphold righteousness through faith?
I thought you said His blood was divine?
Path and way refers to the saving Divinity of Jesus and the work of Salvation through His crucifixion, Spiritual Warfare in His preaching to the prisoners of Sheol in Spirit and the full power of His Ressurection.
Michael was able to banish the Dragon from Heaven because of this.
God was restored as our mediator, instead of the carnal destroyer. Why would you associate this with people that uphold righteousness through faith?
I thought you said His blood was divine?
Ephesians 1:7 KJV -
Now, that is Good News!
That was said in another thread and I answered you there. Now you are playing childish games switching around between threads to hide your inadequacies while making false insinuations. I already answered you and am not willing to play tiddly-winks with you any more seeing how this is likely your umpteenth screen name.
marhig
Well-known member
If God was restored as our mediator, who was he a mediator between?
1 Samuel 2:25
marhig
Well-known member
Sorry but that doesn't answer my question?
How is God a mediator between man and himself?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Jesus, being 'begotten', infers a beginning point, a generation in time.......
Jesus, being 'begotten', infers a beginning point, a generation in time.......
Don't forget,..what is 'begotten' has a beginning in time. The Father ALONE is unbegotten, true (full)Deity, unborn, undying, immortal, incorporeal, absolute, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-supreme, universal, INFINITE. Therefore only the Father is true Deity, the First Source and Center of all things and beings....the Original Infinite ONE. Nothing surpasses the Primacy of the Universal Father, while all the sons of God are but his offspring.
If such is the case, an Arian view of Jesus or a Trinitarian view are not very different, besides one believing that Jesus did not have a beginning in time (as some pre-existent logos, or pre-incarnate Christ co-eternal with 2 other divine personalities). If one assumes an Arian Christology, Jesus is still the divine Son of God, Firstborn, BEGOTTEN of God, his Arch-angel and Agent whereby both 'creation' and 'redemption' is brought forth. The Father works with and thru the Son. A belief that Jesus is 'God' (as proposed in an orthodox formulation and definition) or 'YHWH' is unnecessary, for a Unitarian view still grants Jesus the Messiah all rights, power and authority in his divinely appointed and anointed office, to be all the scriptures profess of his personhood and role as Savior. One can still honor, appreciate and worship the divinity or 'God' being represented or revealed in Jesus without MAKING Jesus into full-blown DEITY (YHWH). Remember, only the Living Father who is unbegotten from all eternity and truly infinite, is The ONE who brings all things into being, apart from which nothing could be or exist,...and the Son is definitely BEGOTTEN,.....so there was a 'time' when he in his 'begotten' form did not exist.
The rest of the Arian Controversy is so much quibbles over metaphysics and semantics, amidst a background play of politics.
Who thinks 'God' really cares if you believe Jesus is the same(homoousia) 'substance' and 'being' of the Father, or only of like(homoiousia) substance of being of the Father? A creed later came out that said to toss out both theories, since neither were definitively shown in scripture, so its pretty much a wild goose chase, and a greasy one at that.
Jesus, being 'begotten', infers a beginning point, a generation in time.......
Don't forget,..what is 'begotten' has a beginning in time. The Father ALONE is unbegotten, true (full)Deity, unborn, undying, immortal, incorporeal, absolute, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-supreme, universal, INFINITE. Therefore only the Father is true Deity, the First Source and Center of all things and beings....the Original Infinite ONE. Nothing surpasses the Primacy of the Universal Father, while all the sons of God are but his offspring.
If such is the case, an Arian view of Jesus or a Trinitarian view are not very different, besides one believing that Jesus did not have a beginning in time (as some pre-existent logos, or pre-incarnate Christ co-eternal with 2 other divine personalities). If one assumes an Arian Christology, Jesus is still the divine Son of God, Firstborn, BEGOTTEN of God, his Arch-angel and Agent whereby both 'creation' and 'redemption' is brought forth. The Father works with and thru the Son. A belief that Jesus is 'God' (as proposed in an orthodox formulation and definition) or 'YHWH' is unnecessary, for a Unitarian view still grants Jesus the Messiah all rights, power and authority in his divinely appointed and anointed office, to be all the scriptures profess of his personhood and role as Savior. One can still honor, appreciate and worship the divinity or 'God' being represented or revealed in Jesus without MAKING Jesus into full-blown DEITY (YHWH). Remember, only the Living Father who is unbegotten from all eternity and truly infinite, is The ONE who brings all things into being, apart from which nothing could be or exist,...and the Son is definitely BEGOTTEN,.....so there was a 'time' when he in his 'begotten' form did not exist.
The rest of the Arian Controversy is so much quibbles over metaphysics and semantics, amidst a background play of politics.
Who thinks 'God' really cares if you believe Jesus is the same(homoousia) 'substance' and 'being' of the Father, or only of like(homoiousia) substance of being of the Father? A creed later came out that said to toss out both theories, since neither were definitively shown in scripture, so its pretty much a wild goose chase, and a greasy one at that.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
No foul deceit or willfull untruth involved here, just sharing viewpoints........
No foul deceit or willfull untruth involved here, just sharing viewpoints........
My view shared from a Urantia Book cosmology holds, since its Christology has a consistent logic and cosmic hierarchy, and it was shared as an example to show that an order of 'Creator Sons' who are born out from the Universal Father, could go forth and create worlds and populate those worlds with mortal souls, and to those mortals of those worlds,....the 'Creator Son' who created them would be to them as 'God', for he would certainly be their 'creator' and 'god', yet all Creator Sons (however many exist, perhaps thousands) would still be divine Sons of the Universal Father,...they would be extensions and representatives of The Father to the worlds of space and time. So, in this sense, yes...Jesus is to us, if he is our Creator Son, as our 'God' and 'father'.....but he is ever subordinate to the Universal Father of all beings, because the Father is greater and senior to all sentient beings in existence. Again, nothing surpasses the PRIMACY of the Universal Father. However, Jesus or any other 'Creator Son' in the cosmos, is NOT the Father. Jesus reveals/represents however the nature, character, love, power and wisdom of the Father, of course. Only the Father however is pure Deity, invisible, incorporeal, omnipresent, and all-mighty, because only the Father is truly INFINITE, and is the First Source and Center of all. - all other divine Sons (cosmic beings, angels, archons, luminaries, devas, etc.) emenate out of the Father, as extensions and offsprings of Himself, as Creation reflects the inner mind and imagination of The Original Creator.
Deity alone is deity. (pure spirit, incorporeal, essence, reality, infinite intelligence)
Perhaps you're reading too much ulterior motives or 'foul deceit' into alternative historical views that many early believers DID hold dear and believe as true, as Arianism and forms thereof did at some times have the ascendency within Christendom, particularly in seats of power in the ruling elite. Just because the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian politics won the day with the big wigs in leadership, after much struggles behind the scenes in church-state affairs....doesn't validate the formula itself, which is but just another 'concept' among other concepts but passed off as some 'absolute truth', which it is NOT. As noted before, its but a 'relational concept', and a preferred article of faith. That's all it is. Now if one deems it something MORE, that is a matter of subjectivity, is it not? Well, of course it it....since you couldn't prove otherwise, no matter what prolifics of scriptural posturing and interpretational spins could be conjured. At the end of the day, you have your 'preferred' doctrinal concepts and BELIEFS, that appear 'right'/'correct' (orthodox) for the moment, BUT that could change if factors cause you to ADOPT a different point of view or belief. - and that's how the dice rolls..... - kinda like Yahtzee, but the numbers always change
No foul deceit or willfull untruth involved here, just sharing viewpoints........
My view shared from a Urantia Book cosmology holds, since its Christology has a consistent logic and cosmic hierarchy, and it was shared as an example to show that an order of 'Creator Sons' who are born out from the Universal Father, could go forth and create worlds and populate those worlds with mortal souls, and to those mortals of those worlds,....the 'Creator Son' who created them would be to them as 'God', for he would certainly be their 'creator' and 'god', yet all Creator Sons (however many exist, perhaps thousands) would still be divine Sons of the Universal Father,...they would be extensions and representatives of The Father to the worlds of space and time. So, in this sense, yes...Jesus is to us, if he is our Creator Son, as our 'God' and 'father'.....but he is ever subordinate to the Universal Father of all beings, because the Father is greater and senior to all sentient beings in existence. Again, nothing surpasses the PRIMACY of the Universal Father. However, Jesus or any other 'Creator Son' in the cosmos, is NOT the Father. Jesus reveals/represents however the nature, character, love, power and wisdom of the Father, of course. Only the Father however is pure Deity, invisible, incorporeal, omnipresent, and all-mighty, because only the Father is truly INFINITE, and is the First Source and Center of all. - all other divine Sons (cosmic beings, angels, archons, luminaries, devas, etc.) emenate out of the Father, as extensions and offsprings of Himself, as Creation reflects the inner mind and imagination of The Original Creator.
Deity alone is deity. (pure spirit, incorporeal, essence, reality, infinite intelligence)
Perhaps you're reading too much ulterior motives or 'foul deceit' into alternative historical views that many early believers DID hold dear and believe as true, as Arianism and forms thereof did at some times have the ascendency within Christendom, particularly in seats of power in the ruling elite. Just because the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian politics won the day with the big wigs in leadership, after much struggles behind the scenes in church-state affairs....doesn't validate the formula itself, which is but just another 'concept' among other concepts but passed off as some 'absolute truth', which it is NOT. As noted before, its but a 'relational concept', and a preferred article of faith. That's all it is. Now if one deems it something MORE, that is a matter of subjectivity, is it not? Well, of course it it....since you couldn't prove otherwise, no matter what prolifics of scriptural posturing and interpretational spins could be conjured. At the end of the day, you have your 'preferred' doctrinal concepts and BELIEFS, that appear 'right'/'correct' (orthodox) for the moment, BUT that could change if factors cause you to ADOPT a different point of view or belief. - and that's how the dice rolls.....
- kinda like Yahtzee, but the numbers always change
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
How would you prove such, beyond it being your belief that such is so, or such was not...OR join the bandwagon of church council debates and spiritual food fights that went on for centuries over just how much of Jesus was 'human' and how much was 'divine'? Which ratio-formula do you prefer, and what camp do you belong? It is enough to see 'God', the nature, character, love and wisdom of Deity in and thru Jesus, and worship Deity in that revelation, which in spirit and truth appreciates and values 'Our Father',...who is seeking such to worship him. And it is EVER this Living, Invisible and Infinite FATHER-GOD that Jesus guides, leads and points us towards, is it not?
Of course Jesus is divine, only in as much as he reveals divinity, or has and expresses the divine nature. We too, are partakers of the divine nature, so we can reveal 'God' as well.
That passage says nothing about "God" or "Elohim". You are perverting what it says. The Father YHWH says that He is the only Savior in that passage. Why do you detest that fact so much?
Isaiah 43:11 Restored Name KJV
43:11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no saviour.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa43.htm
And, nope, sorry for your luck: that does not suddenly mean "Jesus is YHWH". :chuckle:
Once upon a pool party there was a little girl who wanted to go swimming too, like the grown ups, but she did not know how to swim. So her daddy went and got the floaties, put them on her little arms, filled them up with air, and set her in the shallow end of the pool by the edge and told her to stay by the side of the pool where she could hold on to the edge. He then sat down beside the pool and watched her. For about five seconds he turned his head away because something happened behind him that caused a commotion. When he turned right back around his daughter's head was under the water, her arms were flailing and splashing, and one of the floaties was already flung off her arm and floating across the water. It all happened so fast that before he knew it he was holding her in his arms making sure she was okay. And when the father knew that she was going to be alright, he said to his little daughter, What happened? (expecting to hear why she left the side of the pool and how she got into her predicament so quickly, as if, lol), but thinking that he wanted to know what had saved her, she said, I don't know, all I know is that my head went under the water, and suddenly a giant hand came swooping down, and pulled me up out of the water, and there you were: the Big Hand saved me! :chuckle:
Is YHWH not God? Be very careful how you answer that question.
If YHWH is God, then if A = B and B = C, then A = C.
If YHWH = God and YHWH = Only Savior, then GOD = Only Savior.
See how that works?
If there is only one Savior, and that's YHWH, then why is the Son called the Savior?
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. - 1 John 4:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4:14&version=NKJV
A = B, B = C, then A = C.
If there is only one Savior, and that is God, and Jesus is our Savior, then that means that Jesus is God.
Oookay then...
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