PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Yeah, Mid-Acts is even worse.
Why not? I'd provide plenty of baked yummies while teaching you the truth so you could abandon your Cult.
ISRAEL IS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE BELIEVERS
- Thread starter intojoy
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Yeah, Mid-Acts is even worse.
Why not? I'd provide plenty of baked yummies while teaching you the truth so you could abandon your Cult.
The LORD Jesus Christ bore sin once and for all two-thousand years ago.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This is true. It's so sad you don't know what singular anarthrous hamartia (sin) actually IS.
beameup
New member
They believe Jesus is/was Michael the Archangel.
God's Truth
New member
No one ENTERS THAT grace without living faith, which is faith with obedience.
See Romans 5:2.
In addition, read what all say about what kind of faith is dead and which faith is alive.
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Revelation 21: 2
Do many Christian Zionists really believe that this Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven is literal, physical Jerusalem? I think maybe they do.
What about Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." I suspect they think that this Jerusalem too is literal, physical Jerusalem.
What about II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down."
How do you literally turn a city upside down?
Here is the problem of Christian Zionism: C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.
The Christian Zionist starting point that says Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel comes out of this literalist "Hermeneutic" and is apparently based upon the idea that the doctrines and practices of the multitude in Old Covenant Israel were of the letter, were literal and of that which is physical, and that idea tends to be true of the multitude.
In the New Testament, the word Israel does always mean Old Covenant Israel, until you get to to Romans.
In Romans 9: 6, Paul says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" The second Israel is Old Covenant Israel, but the first Israel here is not Old Covenant Israel. It is the elect of God in the New Covenant.
Galatians 6: 16 says "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." If you isolate this one verse and pretend you know nothing of what Paul says in Romans 9, in Galatians 3 and 4, in II Corinthians 3 and in Romans 2, there would be no reason to believe that this Israel of God is not Old Covenant Israel.
And here are the two verses that Christian Zionists insist proves their theology: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11: 25-26
The blindness that in part has happened is to Old Covenant Israel, but ---
Again, the Christian Zionist literalist method of interpreting scripture insists that Israel in Romans 11: 26 must be Old Covenant Israel and not the Israel of God, meaning all the elect, regardless of their physical (or literal) DNA.
The "Hermeneutic" of Christian Zionism will not interpret scripture by use of other scripture, when that interpretation undermines their theology. But to make Romans 11: 26 agree with Romans 2, Romans 9, Galatians 3, Galatians 4 and Galatians 6 Israel there must be all the elect of God and not the multitude of Old Covenant Israel.
Look at Romans 11: 28, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
This is a difficult verse. Because he says they are beloved for the sake of the fathers, you might think that Abraham, Issac and Jacob would love them as people of the Old Covenant. But look, he says touching the election, by which he means election to salvation in Jesus Christ. So, who are "they?"
They who are enemies of the Gospel are those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ. But the "they" who are beloved as concerning the election are not Old Covenant Israel. They, or some of them, could be the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5 who accepted Christ, but this "they" is not the multitude of Old Covenant Israel who were cut off in Romans 11: 17-20. So, again Paul talks about two different Israels in the same sentence or refers to one Israel in one sentence and to another Israel in the next sentence.
Do many Christian Zionists really believe that this Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven is literal, physical Jerusalem? I think maybe they do.
What about Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." I suspect they think that this Jerusalem too is literal, physical Jerusalem.
What about II Kings 21: 13, "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down."
How do you literally turn a city upside down?
Here is the problem of Christian Zionism: C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.
The Christian Zionist starting point that says Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel comes out of this literalist "Hermeneutic" and is apparently based upon the idea that the doctrines and practices of the multitude in Old Covenant Israel were of the letter, were literal and of that which is physical, and that idea tends to be true of the multitude.
In the New Testament, the word Israel does always mean Old Covenant Israel, until you get to to Romans.
In Romans 9: 6, Paul says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" The second Israel is Old Covenant Israel, but the first Israel here is not Old Covenant Israel. It is the elect of God in the New Covenant.
Galatians 6: 16 says "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." If you isolate this one verse and pretend you know nothing of what Paul says in Romans 9, in Galatians 3 and 4, in II Corinthians 3 and in Romans 2, there would be no reason to believe that this Israel of God is not Old Covenant Israel.
And here are the two verses that Christian Zionists insist proves their theology: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11: 25-26
The blindness that in part has happened is to Old Covenant Israel, but ---
Again, the Christian Zionist literalist method of interpreting scripture insists that Israel in Romans 11: 26 must be Old Covenant Israel and not the Israel of God, meaning all the elect, regardless of their physical (or literal) DNA.
The "Hermeneutic" of Christian Zionism will not interpret scripture by use of other scripture, when that interpretation undermines their theology. But to make Romans 11: 26 agree with Romans 2, Romans 9, Galatians 3, Galatians 4 and Galatians 6 Israel there must be all the elect of God and not the multitude of Old Covenant Israel.
Look at Romans 11: 28, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
This is a difficult verse. Because he says they are beloved for the sake of the fathers, you might think that Abraham, Issac and Jacob would love them as people of the Old Covenant. But look, he says touching the election, by which he means election to salvation in Jesus Christ. So, who are "they?"
They who are enemies of the Gospel are those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ. But the "they" who are beloved as concerning the election are not Old Covenant Israel. They, or some of them, could be the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5 who accepted Christ, but this "they" is not the multitude of Old Covenant Israel who were cut off in Romans 11: 17-20. So, again Paul talks about two different Israels in the same sentence or refers to one Israel in one sentence and to another Israel in the next sentence.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Amen x Infinity.
I looked at Romans 8: 6 again. The King James Version says " For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
The 1526 Tyndale New Testament for Romans 9: 6-7 says ""For they are not all Israelites which came of Israel: Nether are they all children straight way because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac shall thy seed be called."
Romans 9: 6 should not be quoted alone, but should include Romans 9: 7
What does the Greek for Romans 9: 6 alone say? ου γαρ παντες οι εξ ισραηλ ουτοι ισραηλ. "For not all which of Israel those Israel." Are is left out and implied twice in this sentence, which would read "...for not all which are of Israel those are Israel.
This is a difficult text. The first Israel in Romans 9: 6 refers, not to the Israel of God, but to the physical descendants of Abraham, that is, Israel of the flesh. Not all of those who are of Israel of the flesh are the Israel of God. The inclusion of Romans 9: 7 helps to identify which Israel is which. By children in Romans 9: 7 Paul means the children of God which he uses in Romans 9: 8. The seed of Abraham in Romans 9: 7 refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, Israel of the flesh. Not all Israel of the flesh became the children of God, or the Israel of God. Only a remnant of Israel of the flesh became the Israel of God (Romans 11: 1-5, especially verse 5)..
The 1526 Tyndale New Testament for Romans 9: 6-7 says ""For they are not all Israelites which came of Israel: Nether are they all children straight way because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac shall thy seed be called."
Romans 9: 6 should not be quoted alone, but should include Romans 9: 7
What does the Greek for Romans 9: 6 alone say? ου γαρ παντες οι εξ ισραηλ ουτοι ισραηλ. "For not all which of Israel those Israel." Are is left out and implied twice in this sentence, which would read "...for not all which are of Israel those are Israel.
This is a difficult text. The first Israel in Romans 9: 6 refers, not to the Israel of God, but to the physical descendants of Abraham, that is, Israel of the flesh. Not all of those who are of Israel of the flesh are the Israel of God. The inclusion of Romans 9: 7 helps to identify which Israel is which. By children in Romans 9: 7 Paul means the children of God which he uses in Romans 9: 8. The seed of Abraham in Romans 9: 7 refers to the physical descendants of Abraham, Israel of the flesh. Not all Israel of the flesh became the children of God, or the Israel of God. Only a remnant of Israel of the flesh became the Israel of God (Romans 11: 1-5, especially verse 5)..
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# Nwye 226
Yes, yes we are very familiar with this stuff.
When Paul speaks of the Jews being cast away, diminished, fallen, graffed out we are to understand that this is the old covenant Israel.
But when in the very next verse he says they are to be received, accepted, reconciled and graffed back in this we must understand refer to the church, the new Israel, the remnant who actually do not need reconciling because they never were graffed out.
And when Paul speaks of the Jews as being enemies of the gospel for your sakes this refers to the OC crowd but when he says they [the very ones who are enemies] are elect and beloved for the sake of the fathers Paul must mean the church.
What a mess
It does not make me angry it makes me sad. People prize their theological standpoint more precious than God's word. Instead of making their doctrines to fit the bible they perform double somersauts to make the bible support their doctrines.
And I claim myself to be as reformed as any, a believer in free grace and the sovereignty of God.
Yes, yes we are very familiar with this stuff.
When Paul speaks of the Jews being cast away, diminished, fallen, graffed out we are to understand that this is the old covenant Israel.
But when in the very next verse he says they are to be received, accepted, reconciled and graffed back in this we must understand refer to the church, the new Israel, the remnant who actually do not need reconciling because they never were graffed out.
And when Paul speaks of the Jews as being enemies of the gospel for your sakes this refers to the OC crowd but when he says they [the very ones who are enemies] are elect and beloved for the sake of the fathers Paul must mean the church.
What a mess
It does not make me angry it makes me sad. People prize their theological standpoint more precious than God's word. Instead of making their doctrines to fit the bible they perform double somersauts to make the bible support their doctrines.
And I claim myself to be as reformed as any, a believer in free grace and the sovereignty of God.
But it was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ.
Once again I say to you that you fail to understand the election, it is not unto salvation.....but unto being conformed to Christ...THAT is the spiritual Israel, heavenly Israel, the church
We Gentiles are brought in with them graffed into their vine.
But there are STILL promises made to the NATURAL seed of Abraham ALL of them, that is the promise of the land. The promise to them of the land is as sure and as guaranteed as the promise of heaven is to us. On the very same basis. The election of grace before we ever did anything whether good or evil.
But here is the point of that
God's plan for the fullness of time is to UNITE ALL THINGS in Christ whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.
So whether the saints in heaven [Jew and Gentile] or seed of Abraham on earth all are to be reconciled, united in Christ. Heaven on earth. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
And to forestall AMR none of this is to be achieved without a conversion happening to the Jews
"They will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son" ALL Israel will mourn for Him for three days they will mourn, the women will mourn separated from the men and the men will mourn separated from the women...you can read it in Zechariah. Israel as nation is to be saved.
Of COURSE as a nation of individuals.
"They will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son" ALL Israel will mourn for Him for three days they will mourn, the women will mourn separated from the men and the men will mourn separated from the women...you can read it in Zechariah. Israel as nation is to be saved.
Of COURSE as a nation of individuals.
Dr Herman Neutics is a catholic monk from the 60s he woke up one morning feeling fine and formed a brotherhood called Herman's Hermits
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Reformers make very careful (Covenantal) distinctions between Paul's references to national Israel, and Paul teachings regarding spiritual Israel, according to election and grace.
I have quoted the key verses in Galatians 3 - which are Galatians 3: 3, 16 and Galatians 3: 26-29 several times in discussions with Christian Zionists. But they never deal with Galatians 3, but always turn to another scripture or argue without using specific scripture.
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
All are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ, both Jews and non-Jews. If you are Christ's, then you are the seed of Abraham.
Israel of the flesh means those who have the bloodline from Abraham, but are not Christ's, and in Romans 9: 8 they are not the children of God. The New Testament never says that those of the physical bloodline cannot be saved. But it does say all who are of the elect must be born again in Christ. "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3: 3
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
All are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ, both Jews and non-Jews. If you are Christ's, then you are the seed of Abraham.
Israel of the flesh means those who have the bloodline from Abraham, but are not Christ's, and in Romans 9: 8 they are not the children of God. The New Testament never says that those of the physical bloodline cannot be saved. But it does say all who are of the elect must be born again in Christ. "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3: 3
“I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;”
**Isaiah *42:6 *ASV
http://bible.com/12/isa.42.6.asv
**Isaiah *42:6 *ASV
http://bible.com/12/isa.42.6.asv
From the beginning of the 3.5 years to the end, there will be no new born again Christians made.
However the new believers of both present day Judah and the entire world will be all members of the one spiritual nation of Israel.
The only reason Judah is mentioned in Zech ch 12 is because many are there today and if any Arabs believe then they will be at peace with Christ and all of His children regardless of ther race or former religion.
It means that the only remaining people of the middle east area who will survive Christs return, will no longer be in Judaism, and will forsake it utterly.
LA
However the new believers of both present day Judah and the entire world will be all members of the one spiritual nation of Israel.
The only reason Judah is mentioned in Zech ch 12 is because many are there today and if any Arabs believe then they will be at peace with Christ and all of His children regardless of ther race or former religion.
It means that the only remaining people of the middle east area who will survive Christs return, will no longer be in Judaism, and will forsake it utterly.
LA