ISRAEL IS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE BELIEVERS
- Thread starter intojoy
- Start date
“even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?”
**Romans *9:24 *ASV
http://bible.com/12/rom.9.24.asv
Again, saved Gentiles (called) and saved Jews 2 different categories within the Body of Yeshua.
**Romans *9:24 *ASV
http://bible.com/12/rom.9.24.asv
Again, saved Gentiles (called) and saved Jews 2 different categories within the Body of Yeshua.
Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye that were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
God made certain covenantal promises to the Jewish people. In verse 12, the word covenants is plural because he is dealing with the four unconditional, eternal covenants God has made with the Jewish people: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. God's blessings are mediated by these four covenants. He also points out that God made a fifth covenant with the Jewish people, but unlike the other four, the Mosaic Covenant, which contains the Mosaic Law, was conditional and temporary. Among the purposes of the Mosaic Law, the purpose he deals with here was to serve as the middle wall of partition to keep Gentiles as Gentiles away from enjoying the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants. As long as the Mosaic Law was in force, if a Gentile wished to partake of the covenantal promises and blessings, he would have to undergo conversion to Mosaic Judaism, be circumcised, take upon himself the obligations of the Law, and live like a Jew had to live under the Law. So Gentiles as proselytes to Mosaic Judaism could benefit, but not Gentiles as Gentiles. Among the accomplishments of the death of the Messiah is that this middle wall of partition…the law of commandments was broken down. As Paul states it elsewhere, “the Law was rendered inoperative.”
God made certain covenantal promises to the Jewish people. In verse 12, the word covenants is plural because he is dealing with the four unconditional, eternal covenants God has made with the Jewish people: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. God's blessings are mediated by these four covenants. He also points out that God made a fifth covenant with the Jewish people, but unlike the other four, the Mosaic Covenant, which contains the Mosaic Law, was conditional and temporary. Among the purposes of the Mosaic Law, the purpose he deals with here was to serve as the middle wall of partition to keep Gentiles as Gentiles away from enjoying the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants. As long as the Mosaic Law was in force, if a Gentile wished to partake of the covenantal promises and blessings, he would have to undergo conversion to Mosaic Judaism, be circumcised, take upon himself the obligations of the Law, and live like a Jew had to live under the Law. So Gentiles as proselytes to Mosaic Judaism could benefit, but not Gentiles as Gentiles. Among the accomplishments of the death of the Messiah is that this middle wall of partition…the law of commandments was broken down. As Paul states it elsewhere, “the Law was rendered inoperative.”
Yes I agree with that.
Second coming of Christ---
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
First coming of Christ--(and shortly after)
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zec 13:1 In that day (the same day , the first coming)there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
They did that.
None will do that after the second coming.
LA
The key word for the position of the Gentiles is the word partaker.
What Paul does not say is that Gentiles have become “takers over” of the promise, as replacement theology teaches, but he does say is that they have become partakers of the promise. The word promise is singular since he is emphasizing the key spiritual promise of salvation by grace through faith in the person of the Messiah. The position of the Gentiles, then, is that of partaking of the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants. They do not partake of the physical blessings, but they do partake of the spiritual blessings.
What Paul does not say is that Gentiles have become “takers over” of the promise, as replacement theology teaches, but he does say is that they have become partakers of the promise. The word promise is singular since he is emphasizing the key spiritual promise of salvation by grace through faith in the person of the Messiah. The position of the Gentiles, then, is that of partaking of the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants. They do not partake of the physical blessings, but they do partake of the spiritual blessings.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This comes close . . .
The covenant promise of grace and salvation has always been spiritual, and national Israel was the earthly entity used by God, to manifest His moral ordinances and proclaim His Gospel remedies, amongst all the other nations of the world.
Simple! Profound!
Believe it!
"I have quoted the key verses in Galatians 3 - which are Galatians 3: 3, 16 and Galatians 3: 26-29 several times in discussions with Christian Zionists. But they never deal with Galatians 3, but always turn to another scripture or argue without using specific scripture."
Not only did the defenders of Christian Zionism not deal with Galatians 3, but neither did the others here.
And - "From the beginning of the 3.5 years to the end, there will be no new born again Christians made."
Be very careful about claiming there is to be some specific time period for the Tribulation of Matthew 24: 21, 29. Being literalists, the dispensaionalits or Christian Zionists are into this kind of thing. The interest in the Tribulation should be on what is happening during this period of time, and what the role of the remnant and the multitude in the Tribulation is. The Tribulation may already be under way, or we are right near its beginning. It could go on for longer than three and a half years or seven years, and be careful about accepting the dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9: 24-27. In Daniel 9: 27 many dispensationalists have confused the identity of "he",who is said in the middle of the week to cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." In verse 26 the prince and the Messiah are mentioned. No one man dispensationalist anti-Christ figure is mentioned there.
Not only did the defenders of Christian Zionism not deal with Galatians 3, but neither did the others here.
And - "From the beginning of the 3.5 years to the end, there will be no new born again Christians made."
Be very careful about claiming there is to be some specific time period for the Tribulation of Matthew 24: 21, 29. Being literalists, the dispensaionalits or Christian Zionists are into this kind of thing. The interest in the Tribulation should be on what is happening during this period of time, and what the role of the remnant and the multitude in the Tribulation is. The Tribulation may already be under way, or we are right near its beginning. It could go on for longer than three and a half years or seven years, and be careful about accepting the dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9: 24-27. In Daniel 9: 27 many dispensationalists have confused the identity of "he",who is said in the middle of the week to cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." In verse 26 the prince and the Messiah are mentioned. No one man dispensationalist anti-Christ figure is mentioned there.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
"Replacement Theology" is a term that gets thrown around a lot toward those who don't advocate replacement at all. It's a strawman to distract by false pejorative.
The Bible mentions a period of 3.5 years, in Daniel 12 and Rev., the last half of the seventieth week of Dan ch 9.
In it, Christ will again confirm the covenant, which He did in the first half of the week leading to His sacrifice ending that of the OC kind.
Simple really.
LA
Epoisses
New member
The covenant we are under now is the new covenant signified by the Lord's supper. There will never be a return to old covenant law worship at least not by Christ. The enemies of Christ seem dead set on going back there, however.
This is the careful distinction you make, God will renege on the promises He made to Israel but He will surely keep His promise to the church.
beameup
New member
Ezekiel 40-48 deals with the Temple and the Sacrifices that will be instituted during the Millennial Reign of Yeshua Messiah from Jerusalem. Nine chapters of divinely inspired writings is a lot of info from YHWH.
Galatians.3.16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not to seeds as of many but as of one which is Christ.
But dear chaps it is YOU who are claiming more than one seed and saying this seed will inherit but this seed will not inherit
Galatians.3.17
And this I say that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law which was 430 years after cannot disannul that it should make the promise of none effect
This is the very point for you say the promise WAS disannulled, Paul says it was confirmed of God IN CHRIST 430 years before the law.
Paul's argument here is not about who is promised but upon what basis the promise is made, by grace through faith? or by obedience to the law? in other words is it by promise or by obedience? but there is only one seed, one promise and one condition i.e. faith
But Abraham DID believe.
It is very simple to understand what Paul is teaching, false apostles had come and told the Galatians that the Gentiles were not children or seed of Abraham unless they were circumcised and kept the law. Paul vehemently repudiates the claim....just as works of the law did not earn Abe the inheritance but hearing with faith only so also those Gentiles prove themselves to be seed of Abe by their hearing and believing
I say to you again that election is not unto salvation as you say, it never was. Election is unto the body of Christ, to be conformed to Christ...to be sure we must be saved to be confirmed to Christ. But that doesn't preclude others from being saved.
We fully admit that the Jews at this present time are fallen away from faith, Paul carefully explains why "until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in."
They are to be reconciled, restored, received, accepted. Then through them the rest of mankind will seek the Lord during the 1,000 years.
The law didn't annul the promise, NOTHING can annul the promise God swore by Himself that the seed of Abraham would be as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore and that in him would the nations bless themselves.
See you boys believing in election, but the Jews were elect before you were ever elect
Again I say that the promise to the seed of Abraham is the land...actually the ends of the earth.
I do declare this is the very argument we have with our Arminian friends except that with Israel you take the Arminian side....is by grace or works? is it a chance deal or by election?
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
The above text of course does not speak about that carpenter.
See here what it speaks about: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/et-asher-1
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
If anybody wants to know what Isaiah 42 (and 53) speaks about, then look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
The 613 commandments had not yet been given, but the seven Noachide commandments had been given.
Why did God choose Abraham? Because Abraham chose God:
"Then Y-H-W-H appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 26
Observe God's laws, and God rewards.
Transgress God's laws, and God punishes.
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil."
Eccl. 12:13
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
WRONG.
See here what God says about that:
The Christian churches believe in the theory that God rejected His chosen people, and that instead the Christians are the new spiritual Israel. However, God says clearly in the Holy Torah that He will never break his covenant with the Jewish people, even not when they stray away from Him. When the Jews go astray God will punish them. (Leviticus 26:14-17) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them seven times harder. (ibid:18-22) And if they then still don't listen, God will punish them another seven times harder. (ibid:23-24) And if they then still refuse to turn back to God, He will punish them another seven times harder. (ibid:27-28) But despite all this, God will not break His covenant with the Jewish people: Leviticus 26:44-45; "And yet for all that, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: For I am Y-H-W-H their G.d. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their G.d: I am Y-H-W-H."
"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying: The two families that Y-H-W-H hath chosen, He has even cast them of? Thus they have despised My people, that they should no more be a nation before them. Thus saith Y-H-W-H: If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: for I will cause their captivety to return and have mercy on them." Jeremiah 33:24-26
If God rejected the Jews, why then is He now fulfilling the prophecies that He will gather in the Jews and bring them back to their land? "Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?
Surely we see here the hand of God.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
And that God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that just happens to be Y-H-W-H.
He is a lawless, idolatrous, pagan, Gentile.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
The Jews of Jeremiah's day did not inherit lies, worthless and unprofitable things, but they had certainly turned to lies, and they were all busy making gods for themselves which were not gods
That is why they got into trouble, the reason they have been in trouble these 2,000 years is because when their God appeared among them they did not know Him.
Let me ask you candidly
If the Jews rebelled against every messenger God ever sent to them, stoning some and killing others, why are you surprised that when the Son of God appeared among them they should seek to have away with Him?