ISRAEL IS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE BELIEVERS

KingdomRose

New member
I'm kinda thinking it is the anti-Semitism of the church down through the centuries which will be the cause of the church having to go through the tribulation.

What a mistake to believe that Christ's return is for the general resurrection and judgement and not for setting up His kingdom on earth...Jerusalem

How CAN Christians say they are looking for His return if they don't see Israel as central to His plans.

Christians [amillennials] have preached the kingdom of God for centuries...and then subtracted the actual kingdom, at least the earthly part of it...that is why people say it is pie in the sky.

Christians know that it is now HEAVENLY JERUSALEM that is the focus of God's plans. You have apparently missed Jesus' declaration concerning earthly Jerusalem: "I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matt.21:43)

"But YOU [Christians] are 'a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a special possession,' that you should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

"We have such a high priest as this, and he [Jesus] has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a public servant of the holy place and of the true Temple, which God put up, and not man." (Hebrews 8:1,2)


Jesus' Kingdom will always be in heaven. He can guide us just fine from there. As Galatians 4:26 says: "The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our 'mother.'" In chapter 6 it is stated that JESUS' death is the center of what Christians should be looking at, and "the Israel of God" is "all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct," that is, boasting only in Christ.

Do you see that? "The Israel of God" is now the Christian congregation.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I'd like everyone on this thread referring to a circumcised heart to explain exactly what it IS.

For most, it's merely symbolic. What is it?

A soft heart.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26)​
 

KingdomRose

New member
So what you are saying is that God did a three card trick with Israel when He promised Israel salvation forever and ever He was intending to shuffle the cards around and say well actually I never intended for Israel to be saved forever and ever....I had someone else in mind.

What a trickster, God should become a secondhand car salesman

Do you really read the Bible? Half of it says that Israel would be God's people as long as they listen to him and serve only him. If they did not, then he would reject them. He kept his end of the deal...they did not. He intended for them to be his special people forever. They rejected everything he said to them.

You are highly unkind for indicating that God is a trickster for turning to the Gentiles to "take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) Because that is what he did.


"My God will cast them away because they have not listened to Him." (Hosea 9:17, NASB) See also what God inspired to be said at Deuteronomy 28:58-62. I am not saying this---God Himself has said this.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
It's when they trim and remove excess skin from around the heart, duh

:rotfl:

More Modernistic Naturalism and Tangiblism as alleged Literalism. Because flesh is more "real" and "literal" than spirit to you 19th-century heretics. I guess that blood-pumping organ in your chest actually has sentient consciousness. Who knew?

God will be SO disappointed to find out he's not as literal as the lapsed hyper-tangible creation.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
A soft heart.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26)​

Heart? The blood-pumping physical organ? Soft?

What does that mean? Sounds like heart disease, one of the big modern killers of man in first world cultures.

A stone blood-pumping organ? How does that work? And nobody has a flesh heart? Who knew?
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
by PPS
Jesus' Kingdom will always be in heaven.

Not so--

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

because Abraham knew he would not inherit the land until the Holy City came down.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


LA
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber

Yes, you are.

Tell us all about your hyper-tangible Naturalism masquerading as Literalism. Keep exalting that physical above the spiritual. God surely agrees that the created cosmos in its lapsed temporal state is beyond the literality of the heavenly realm, and above His own eternal uncreated spiritual literality as well.

Go with that. It's working SO well.

All of you are 19th-century liberalist anti-Christians.
 

northwye

New member
"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30: 6

Deuteronomy 30: 6 is within a text on the restoration or transformation of Old Covenant Israel. Verse 2 says "...and shalt return unto the Lord thy God." Israel shall return to God.

And since the New Covenant makes Israel a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5), we can interpret Deuteronomy 30: 6 as being a prophecy for New Covenant times. Circumcision of the heart becomes something spiritual under the New Covenant.

In the New Covenant circumcision of the heart is expressed in Romans 2: 29: "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The first question might be, "Is circumcision of the heart any different from being born again, in John 3: 1-6?"

And is it any different from Romans 12: 2, to be transformed by the renewing of your mind? Or is circumcision of the heart any different from becoming a new creation in II Corinthians 5: 5? Or different from Colossians 1: 27,the glory of the mystery among people, "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory?"
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Not so--

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

because Abraham knew he would not inherit the land until the Holy City came down.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.


LA

Why'd you put me in that quote? I don't promote the Heavenly Destiny fallacy.
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
Not all Christians are Christians

Not all Jews are Jews

A Spiritual Jew is one inwardly, one who believes in the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel (Jacob).

A gentile believer in Christ is not a spiritual Jew he is a spiritual gentile.

Nangula and Thang are spiritually immature Gentiles.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Do you really read the Bible? Half of it says that Israel would be God's people as long as they listen to him and serve only him. If they did not, then he would reject them. He kept his end of the deal...they did not. He intended for them to be his special people forever. They rejected everything he said to them.

You are highly unkind for indicating that God is a trickster for turning to the Gentiles to "take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) Because that is what he did.


"My God will cast them away because they have not listened to Him." (Hosea 9:17, NASB) See also what God inspired to be said at Deuteronomy 28:58-62. I am not saying this---God Himself has said this.

God never said He would cast them away forever that is where the mistake is made. It does not matter which prophet you read from Moses onward ALL of them to a man speak about God casting Israel away

ALL of them to a man speak about God restoring Israel, all of them speak about Israel in the latter days being the highest mountain, that is the greatest nation among the nations.

The mistake comes from reading selectively from the prophets and from not reading ALL of what they say.

The same mistake is made when reading Paul who must be our first point of reference, he speaks extensively about Israel over 3 chapters of Romans is devoted to Israel. Understand Paul's way of teaching, he always puts forth two or three arguments before declaring the truth of an argument. Someone will say thus and so, and he will pursue that line, someone else will say something else and then he will pursue their argument in order to throw it down. Paul is a polemicist

Then he sums up with the real case, the truth as it is in Jesus.

So to find Paul's true argument concerning Israel you have to go to the 11th chapter of Romans where he sums up all that he has been teaching.

verse 11

I say then [that is his summing up statement]

have they stumbled so as to fall GOD FORBID but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy

Now if the fall of them be riches of the world and the diminishing of them be the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

For I speak to you Gentiles inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office, if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh and might save some of them

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruits be holy the lump also is holy, and if the root be holy so are the branches

And if some of the branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive tree wert graffed in among them AND WITH THEM partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree boast not against the branches but if thou boast, thou bearest not the root but the root bearest thee.

Thou wilt say then the branches were broken off that I might be graffed in. Well because of unbelief they were broken off and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded but fear

For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest He spare not thee

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell severity but toward thee goodness if thou continue in His goodness otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

And they also if they abide not still in unbelief shall be graffed in for God is able to graff them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature and wert graffed in contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these which be the natural branches be graffed into their own olive tree.

For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part is happened unto Israel UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. As it is written there shall come out of Zion a Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

For this is My covenant with them when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKES, but as touching the election they are BELOVED for the father's sake

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 
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northwye

New member
The Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) did not arise out of the multitude of Old Covenant Israel. It arose out of the remnant of Israel seen in Romans 11: 1-5. In Romans 9: 27 Paul quotes Isaiah 10: 20-22, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness."

The remnant of Israel included the Apostles.

But dispensationalism took over much of the evangelical denominations of the Capital C Church, and it, which is Christian Zionism after 1948, teaches that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel remain the chosen people because of the bloodline, which Galatians 3: 3, 16,26- 29 says in a way too subtle for the Christian Zionists to understand, that the physical bloodline from Abraham became one seed, Jesus Christ, and "...if ye be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

There is also a remnant of Israel in the New Covenant time. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 is a remnant, and the remnant is seen in end time prophecy in Revelation 12: 15-17.

But Christian Zionism does not acknowledge there being a remnant of Israel in the New Covenant timeline.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

In Christian Zionism Israel has become the flesh and blood nation called Israel in the Middle East.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17 King James Version

Many of the recent New Testament translations have changed the Greek word λοιπων, Strong's number 3062, from remnant in the 1526 Tyndale New Testament, the 1599 Geneva Bible and the 1611 King Jams Version to a different word.

The New Revised Standard has "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus."

The New International says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

The New King James Version has for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Young's Literal Translation says "and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

All four of the recent English Bible translations shown above translate Strong's number 3062, loipoy, as rest, saying the rest of her seed, or the rest of her offspring.

Using rest instead of the word remnant, which the three older New Testaments use, changes the doctrine. The "rest of her offspring" does not clearly connect to the remnant of Israel in Isaiah 10, 20-22 in Romans 9: 27 or in Romans 11: 1-5. The "rest' of her seed could refer to something different than the remnant of Israel in scripture.

Here are the Oxford Dictionaries on the meanings of remnant and the rest: Remnant: "Origin: Middle English: contraction of obsolete remenant, from Old French, from remenoir, remanoir 'remain'. "A small remaining quantity of something," "Christian Theology: A small minority of people who will remain faithful to God and so be saved (in allusion to biblical prophecies concerning Israel)." Rest: Origin: Late Middle English: from Old French reste (noun), rester (verb), from Latin restare 'remain," "The remaining part of something," "The remaining people or things; the others," "and (all) the rest (of it)."

Remnant and rest can overlap to some extent in their meanings, in the sense that a remnant is the rest of something which remains, while the larger part does not remain. But translating loipoy as the rest of something tends to lead the meaning away from the Biblical concept of a few people who remain faithful to God, to the doctrines of Christ, while the multitude goes off into false doctrines and practices.

So, there is a change of doctrine, though subtle or ambiguous, from the first three English New Testaments based upon the Textus Receptus, for Revelation 12: 17 on the meaning of loipoy, to the recent English translations, almost all from the Westcott-Hort Greek and not the Textus Receptus.

The principle of the remnant says that when the multitude goes off into false doctrines and false practices God raises up a remnant to began again his work of redemption.

The cutting off of the multitude in Romans 11: 17-20 who were following the false doctrines as leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16: 6, Luke 12: 1), and beginning a new Israel in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 was a major transformation of Israel from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. In that remaking, the Old Covenant, which operated in the physical, was done away with (II Corinthians 3: 11, Hebrews 10: 9),and a New Covenant, which operated in the spiritual, was created in and by Christ. That which was physical under the Old Covenant - physical bloodline from Abraham, physical circumcision, a physical temple building, physical animal sacrifice, etc - was all done away with as shadows (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 17). That which is in the spiritual - in Christ Jesus - became the substance.

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you." Galatians 4: 19 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Corinthians 5: 17

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12: 2

But false doctrines keep Christ from being formed in you, so that you remain in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2; 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit.

The remnant of Israel began that transformation in Christ brought about by the Holy Spirit in the First Century. The multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ and did not want their religion turned upside down (Acts 17: 6). They were cut off.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
As for God being a 3 card trickster that is not my argument but the argument of all those who say He promised Israel so many things forever and ever only to switch cards on them and give it all to somebody else.

God would never behave that way, if He promise He will deliver.

But THEY rely that God will keep eternal promises to them, He reneged [they say] on the Jews but He will not renege on them.

God's promise to the seed of Abraham are based as much on grace as the promises to the church. It was not based upon their obedience to commands any more than ours is. The commandments had not even been given.

Jacob was elected before he did either good or bad.

The critical mistake the Reformed crowd make is this. They fail to see that the promises made to Abraham's seed is fundamentally different to the promises made to the church.
 

God's Truth

New member
God never said He would cast them away forever that is where the mistake is made. It does not matter which prophet you read from Moses onward ALL of them to a man speak about God casting Israel away

ALL of them to a man speak about God restoring Israel, all of them speak about Israel in the latter days being the highest mountain, that is the greatest nation among the nations.

The mistake comes from reading selectively from the prophets and from not reading ALL of what they say.

The same mistake is made when reading Paul who must be our first point of reference, he speaks extensively about Israel over 3 chapters of Romans is devoted to Israel. Understand Paul's way of teaching, he always puts forth two or three arguments before declaring the truth of an argument. Someone will say thus and so, and he will pursue that line, someone else will say something else and then he will pursue their argument in order to throw it down. Paul is a polemicist

Then he sums up with the real case, the truth as it is in Jesus.

So to find Paul's true argument concerning Israel you have to go to the 11th chapter of Romans where he sums up all that he has been teaching.

verse 11

I say then [that is his summing up statement]

have they stumbled so as to fall GOD FORBID but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy

Now if the fall of them be riches of the world and the diminishing of them be the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

For I speak to you Gentiles inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office, if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh and might save some of them

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruits be holy the lump also is holy, and if the root be holy so are the branches

And if some of the branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive tree wert graffed in among them AND WITH THEM partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree boast not against the branches but if thou boast, thou bearest not the root but the root bearest thee.

Thou wilt say then the branches were broken off that I might be graffed in. Well because of unbelief they were broken off and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded but fear

For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest He spare not thee

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell severity but toward thee goodness if thou continue in His goodness otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

And they also if they abide not still in unbelief shall be graffed in for God is able to graff them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature and wert graffed in contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these which be the natural branches be graffed into their own olive tree.

For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part is happened unto Israel UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. As it is written there shall come out of Zion a Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

For this is My covenant with them when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKES, but as touching the election they are BELOVED for the father's sake

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul is explaining that the Jews were not cut off forever...that means they had a chance to be saved like everyone else.

There isn't going to be another time when Jesus comes back that they can be saved.

A person is judged once when they die, and then eternal punishment or eternal life when Jesus comes again.
 

God's Truth

New member
Many misunderstand about Israel.

We who are saved are Israel.

It is spiritual.

God already fulfilled all the earthy land promises.

God sent Jesus and now one must hear the gospel, believe and obey---no mater what religion or blood relation they claim.
 
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