SimpleMan77
New member
Meaning both start in this life. We get the initial, "earnest amount" of each here, and the fullness in the life to come.
Technically both terms describe the same thing
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Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
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Meaning both start in this life. We get the initial, "earnest amount" of each here, and the fullness in the life to come.
Technically both terms describe the same thing
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musterion
Well-known member
How does one get counted worthy of eternal life, when eternal life is a gift?
No, he said those who live in sin, e.g. in the flesh and not in the Spirit, would not inherit the kingdom.
Whose faith? Do you think our own faith saves us? If so you're a heretic.
"Justified by works and not faith only" vs. "Justified by faith and not by works."
Which is it?
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SimpleMan77
New member
Paul said it was by grace, through a faith "which worketh by love".
A living faith that produces the fruit of the Spirit, and a rejection of the works of the flesh.
You cannot take a list of all the "works of the flesh" and the "fruit of the Spirit", and say "if I stay away from these, and do these, I'll earn my way to heaven". Indeed you cannot even hate the one and love the other without grace consuming your life.
However, grace enables and teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts...
...and to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world, looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing...
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musterion
Well-known member
How does one get counted worthy of a gift that cannot be earned?
SimpleMan77
New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
If a person obeyed every one of Paul's, Peter's and Jesus's teachings on how to live like the Spirit wants, and totally opposite of the the Works of the Flesh you'd never, never deserve His grace.
However, if you purposely choose to live in a way that the Bible says that God hates...
It defies all truth AND reason to say that the grace of God will save you and take you to an eternal place where there is nothing but truth and love if you hate truth and love in this life.
God is not in the business of forcibly abducting people
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If a person obeyed every one of Paul's, Peter's and Jesus's teachings on how to live like the Spirit wants, and totally opposite of the the Works of the Flesh you'd never, never deserve His grace.
However, if you purposely choose to live in a way that the Bible says that God hates...
It defies all truth AND reason to say that the grace of God will save you and take you to an eternal place where there is nothing but truth and love if you hate truth and love in this life.
God is not in the business of forcibly abducting people
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SimpleMan77
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You have to look at the whole context of Paul's writings.
PAUL was the one that said that a justifying faith is a "faith which WORKETH BY LOVE". Did Paul change his mind midstream, or maybe are you not understanding faith in the way Paul did.
Obviously Paul believed that faith had to be alive and active or it wasn't really faith at all.
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musterion
Well-known member
One more time.
If one must be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, and if the Kingdom = eternal life, and since eternal life is a gift, how does one earn/be counted worthy (same thing) of the gift?
SimpleMan77
New member
And if you think everyone is going to be saved because Jesus had faith in humanity you'd be 100% wrong.
However, if we exercise the faith he gave us, and reach to take the grace He offers, we'll be saved.
If I'm free-falling toward hell, and Jesus steps out on the ledge and says "you're headed for hell, but if you'll take my hand I'll pull you from the fire", I am not "earning my salvation". I cannot say I saved myself - not in a million years.
However, if I slap his hand and never take it...
Or, if I take it for 10 seconds, and then decide I want to slap it away...
God is not going to take me to heaven if I decide I hate everything he's about.
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SimpleMan77
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You'll never earn it. Ever.
However, if you choose to, you can walk away from it.
If you decide you love sin more than God, he will not forcibly take you to heaven against your will.
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musterion
Well-known member
Then the Kingdom, of which one is counted either worthy or unworthy, in fact does not equal eternal life, which is a gift that is either received or rejected but can be neither earned nor "worthied."
Stop presuming to teach others that which you have not understood.
SimpleMan77
New member
How can you "reject" it? Can you reject it with your actions?
Deliberate actions always follow your heart generally (not speaking of mistakes, I'm talking about actions you choose to do because of decisions your mind/heart makes).
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SimpleMan77
New member
I guess you are willing to engage on a rational level until your argument falls apart, then you revert back to your security zone - name calling and baseless accusations.
Ok.
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musterion
Well-known member
My argument didn't fall apart. I showed where yours was not coherent. Instead of acknowledging it, you talked in circles.
What passage of Scripture?
Faith in humanity? Put down the bong. I never even implied such a thing. And I certainly never implied universal salvation.
Your faith never wavers or wanes? Ever?
If you reject it after having accepted it you're a bigger idiot than I thought.
And if you think Jesus would ever let you go, you're completely ignorant of the gospel of the grace of God.
You can snatch yourself from His hand? You can repurchase yourself? You can break His seal of ownership? You are more powerful than He is?
musterion
Well-known member
They never admit it in so many words but those who say the Seal can be broken OF NECESSITY believe man's will (of the believer, no less!) can overpower God's. It puts you on probation and makes you your own probation officer. What greater power rush can their be than that?
I dont understand how its missed for one who understands their actions had nothing to with salvation, can then believe their actions can cause it to no longer be in effect.
musterion
Well-known member
If someone believes something that contradicts itself, there's a few options.
a) They know there's a contradiction but don't care b/c they don't actually believe any of it. They're just a troll.
b) They may or may not realize there's a contradiction but are under threat of damnation for questioning whatever they've believed, so they shut it out.
c) They come to realize there's a contradiction and start to think it through.
He's either a or b. I find (a) more likely.