How the Gospel Works

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Lon said:
:think: Let's see:

Yep, Total Depravity/inability.


Yep, monergism.


Also monergism "...and this not of yourselves..." Ephesians 2:8,9



Even you and Pate believe in a limitation here, else it becomes universalism and no need for the gospel: "Good news for all!"
Whatever way you eschew universalism, both of you, you are in good company with every Calvinist by the explanation. :e4e:

Uh Oh, Both you and Pate just crossed the :nono: You both suddenly have something to do with your own salvations :(
I really hope you'll contemplate this rather than a knee-jerk. I'm brief here, but you both need to offer a substantial response and CLEARLY explain how this is not you saving yourself. Pate literally said "the ball is in your court." That literally means, you save yourself by response. Ephesians 2:8,9 "...this NOT of yourselves..." John 15:16,19



John 13:18 Frankly, to both of you, your faith is 'less' Jesus than mine. The ball was never in 'my' court. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't leave me alone and give me the ball and leave the court. :nono: I realize it is a bold accusation, but by your language and embrace here, you both are emphasizing what is flat out and plainly wrong and shocking, especially by you Clete, who says he embraces a 'relational' God per Open Theism. Starkly, He looks 'less' relational by your angst against Calvinism where our salvation is known and catered to by God. He will save all that can be saved, else both of you are arbitrary and illogical in your theology understanding and inconsistent. If God 'can' save all, it would be done. Salvation is a specific thing and it does a specific work: It saves some, clearly given in the scriptures.

* Please don't see an overt 'challenge' between me and either of you. We need to wrestle ourselves with scriptures and our need is to wrestle with our God, not one another. I will take your scriptural considerations the same way. We each stand or fall before our Maker, I simply want us to be responsible for our Theology with and before Him and so, it is my endeavor to be of service, not come between you and Him. In Him -Lon
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Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole, John 12:47 also 1 John 2:2. You and your other Calvinist brothers deny this and in doing so pervert and subvert the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. You will not escape the judgment of God for doing that.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. To deny this is to make God an unjust, unmerciful heartless tyrant. To say that Jesus only atoned for some sins and not all sins is proof that you do not have saving faith. Do you think that Jesus and God made a deal with the devil? You believe that God is some sort of a heartless tyrant and that his Son is a failure. I don't think that you are going to do very well in the judgment. You are more anti-God and anti-Christ than many unbelievers.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Truster said:
Scripture can only mean what it first meant. Much has been lost in translation. You constantly use words in a context that proves you have no understanding. When you don't understand what I post you pull Calvin out of a hat and throw your toys out of the pram.
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Nothing has been lost in the translation of the Bible. The Gospel message is clear and accurate. The sign of a heretic is they want to change what the Bible says. There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a lot wrong with what you believe.
 
T

Truster

New member
Robert Pate said:
Nothing has been lost in the translation of the Bible. The Gospel message is clear and accurate. The sign of a heretic is they want to change what the Bible says. There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a lot wrong with what you believe.
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Gospel is an English word and wasn't known by Messiah or the apostles.
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Lon said:
:think: Let's see:

Yep, Total Depravity/inability.


Yep, monergism.


Also monergism "...and this not of yourselves..." Ephesians 2:8,9



Even you and Pate believe in a limitation here, else it becomes universalism and no need for the gospel: "Good news for all!"
Whatever way you eschew universalism, both of you, you are in good company with every Calvinist by the explanation. :e4e:

Uh Oh, Both you and Pate just crossed the :nono: You both suddenly have something to do with your own salvations :(
I really hope you'll contemplate this rather than a knee-jerk. I'm brief here, but you both need to offer a substantial response and CLEARLY explain how this is not you saving yourself. Pate literally said "the ball is in your court." That literally means, you save yourself by response. Ephesians 2:8,9 "...this NOT of yourselves..." John 15:16,19



John 13:18 Frankly, to both of you, your faith is 'less' Jesus than mine. The ball was never in 'my' court. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't leave me alone and give me the ball and leave the court. :nono: I realize it is a bold accusation, but by your language and embrace here, you both are emphasizing what is flat out and plainly wrong and shocking, especially by you Clete, who says he embraces a 'relational' God per Open Theism. Starkly, He looks 'less' relational by your angst against Calvinism where our salvation is known and catered to by God. He will save all that can be saved, else both of you are arbitrary and illogical in your theology understanding and inconsistent. If God 'can' save all, it would be done. Salvation is a specific thing and it does a specific work: It saves some, clearly given in the scriptures.

* Please don't see an overt 'challenge' between me and either of you. We need to wrestle ourselves with scriptures and our need is to wrestle with our God, not one another. I will take your scriptural considerations the same way. We each stand or fall before our Maker, I simply want us to be responsible for our Theology with and before Him and so, it is my endeavor to be of service, not come between you and Him. In Him -Lon
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I think it's laughable that you think this was a refutation of the opening post.

Laughable.

As I predicted, the opening post was effectively ignored. What he said isn't what he meant, what he meant somehow magically agrees with Calvinism regardless of the fact that he explained in perfectly rational detail what he was and was not saying. Typical Calvinist stupidity! (Edited to preserve Lon's delicate sensibilities) All you ever do is twist and and spin. You are all collectively liars and love to have your ears tickled with lies coming from another's mouth.

You're an embarrassment to yourself and to all Christianity.

Clete
 
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Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole, John 12:47 also 1 John 2:2. You and your other Calvinist brothers deny this and in doing so pervert and subvert the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. You will not escape the judgment of God for doing that.
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No good. Simply passing the buck and scape-goating the Calvinist is not answering the question, Robert. In what sense is He Savior of the whole world? You need not mention Calvinism to address this in clarity. Instead, in some depth, please answer the question. Clete is scapegoating too. Your thread says "How the Gospel Works" so I'm not expecting 'not like Calvinism' for an answer lest your thread is NOT about how the Gospel Works. For one claiming to answer how the gospel works, you NEED to explain how the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the Whole world when few ever find the narrow way. How can one go to hell if they are saved? No need for anything Calvinist for a reply again, and thank you.

Robert Pate said:
Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. To deny this is to make God an unjust, unmerciful heartless tyrant.
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:nono: Even an Open Theist is going to be able to ask why the whole world isn't saved then. In fact, some Open Theists are Universalists. You and Clete claim you are not so this is very important and you both need to be VERY clear. To date, this is always explained in a haze and not clearly at all. I believe you confused on this because your answer is "God left the ball in your court." That is man saving Himself and God aloof. It is NEEDED for freewill theism and conversion but it literally has me saving myself with tools He provides me for doing so, rather than Him doing it. Both you and Clete agreeing, said the 'ball is in my court.' Both of you understand the gospel to be something 'you' do with what He already did. There is no need for Christ to have intervened in Saul's life by such reckoning: "the ball was in his court."


Robert Pate said:
To say that Jesus only atoned for some sins and not all sins is proof that you do not have saving faith.
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Right, it is either you saving yourself with 'the ball in your court' or the Lord Jesus Christ still seeking and saving the lost. Luke 19:10 Part of His work was 'seek' else 'save' would have been all that was needed. It isn't. He seeks and will save all that are saved. His work. John 6:44. Don't listen to what I'm saying so much as listen to what Jesus is saying. Your theology MUST embrace His word.

Robert Pate said:
Do you think that Jesus and God made a deal with the devil?
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No.

Robert Pate said:
You believe that God is some sort of a heartless tyrant and that his Son is a failure.
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All God can save, will be saved. He didn't come to condemn but to seek and save the lost. I MUST believe He is nothing less than successful in all He does.

Robert Pate said:
I don't think that you are going to do very well in the judgment.
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Job 13:15
Robert Pate said:
You are more anti-God and anti-Christ than many unbelievers.
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Romans 14:4? I don't believe even Clete will side with you on this pronouncement and he is as or more adamant against Calvinism. Many MAD and Open Theists count me as a brother in Christ. Regardless, this is your sentiment and suspicion. I'm not as concerned with you as I am with Him and what He says. You are a little quick and dirty with your pronouncement. We will all stand before Him. I will NOT have a smug look on my face. Grace is undeserved. There is no joy in seeing anyone lost from it. Luke 9:54-55 Lest the Savior Himself rebuke you. -Lon
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Clete said:
I think it's laughable that you think this was a refutation of the opening post.

Laughable.

As I predicted, the opening post was effectively ignored. What he said isn't what he meant, what he meant somehow magically agrees with Calvinism regardless of the fact that he explained in perfectly rational detail what he was and was not saying. Typical Calvinist B.S. All you ever do is twist and and spin. You are all collectively liars and love to have your ears tickled with lies coming from another's mouth.

You're an embarrassment to yourself and to all Christianity.

Clete
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And you emote like a tween girl. Don't really care about your quick'n'dirty here, Clete. It is arrogant, full of angst, and childish, as is most of your posts (also why you've been on my ignore list). Learn to champion Him and His truth or not at all. Others have been banned for potty mouth attribution. You need to honor your TOL commitment to not skirt the rules. No implied profanity allowed. -Lon
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Robert Pate said:
The Gospel is best understood in the background of the Old Testament.
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The gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was hidden/kept secret in the OT (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) until revealed to and though the apostle Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). The fact that it would save us was unsearchable and hid in God in the OT (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV).
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Robert Pate said:
When God accepted Jesus back into heaven all of humanity was accepted in him. This is why John wrote,

"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.
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If John knew anything about the gospel of Christ, he got it from Paul and even still he did not preach that gospel as the power of God. John was a minister of the circ. and preached the gospel of the circumcision (Galatians 2:1-9 KJV, 3 John 1:7 KJV).

You want to take all of the Bible as saying the same thing to the same people, but it's not going to work. You must 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV! It is not until Paul's due time second sending that we see the gospel of our salvation to ALL MEN (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV, Titus 2:11 KJV). It is strictly Pauline.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Ask Mr. Religion said:
All evidence to the contrary, of course.

Your view, hypothetical universalism, teaches that:
God gave Jesus Christ to save all men on condition they believe; but God has not elected all men to believe and be saved. This means that God gives Jesus Christ to all men but then takes Him away from some. This view of God's choosing persons comes in to exclude the application of the merits of Christ to a whole class of men. Christ's merits call for faith and justification but God says "No" to His dearly beloved Son. Hypothetical universalism teaches that God is not well-pleased to save all those persons for whom Christ died. This is a distortion of the gospel of free grace.​

Jesus says that His blood is poured out for “many,” not for “all” (Matt. 26:28). His death is not effectual for all people who have ever lived; Christ’s death is effectual only for His people.

Our Lord's atonement was definite, not indefinite; that is, the atonement was for a known, specific amount of persons—John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9—a great multitude that no man can number from among all the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9).

Given the definite nature of Our Lord's atonement, it is no wonder Scripture speaks to unconditional choosing of those given to Our Lord:
Deuteronomy 7:6-8, Deuteronomy 10:14-15, Lamentations 5:21, Isaiah 55:11, Amos 3:2, Jeremiah 1:5, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 24:22-24, Matthew 24:31, Luke 12:6-7, John 6:37-39, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 15:16, John 17:19, Acts 2:23, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 17:26, Acts 18:27, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:11-16, Romans 11:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 1 Corinthians 8:3, Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:19, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 1 Peter 1:4-5, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 1:5-11.​

Your problem, Robert, is that you cannot find a single verse of Scripture that teaches what you claim Scripture teaches as relates to God's selection of a specific number of persons that will be saved at His appointed time per His appointed means:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757

Thanks be to God for that, too.

AMR
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Your posts are always a testimony of a failure or flat out refusal to rightly divide the word of truth.
 
T

Truster

New member
heir said:
Romans 4:4-5 KJV

Trust the Lord believing His faith (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) to be saved and sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)!
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"Trust the Lord believing His faith" you show a complete lack of understanding in what was and is conveyed by the Hebrew aman and the Greek pistuo. You simply throw faith, belief and trust at a page not knowing what any of the words convey. This proves you do not live by trust and that you are in fact dead in sin.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Ask Mr. Religion said:
The above is what results when some folks claim to be "rightly dividing."

Sigh.

AMR
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John is not our apostle, but an apostle of the Circ as per Matthew 10:5-6 KJV, Galatians 2:7-9 KJV of which you are not. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) given the dispensation of the grace of God to usward (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV). 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Rightly dividing the word of truth is rightly dividing the gospel of your salvation. Do you have ordinances to keep? If you don't 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV, you might think you do.
 
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