How the Gospel Works

[Lon]

My man, Robert D. Brinsmead taught the Gospel and justification by faith, a very biblical doctrine that was taught by the apostle Paul. Every thing that Brinsmead taught was according to the Bible and honored God and brought glory the Jesus Christ. Can't say the same for your Calvinist doctrine.

:doh:

In the early 1980s Brinsmead's theology shifted to liberal Christianity, and he now rejected the Adventist belief in the Sabbath. He abandoned his belief in many orthodox Christian teachings, including justification through faith in Christ and the divinity of Christ, seeing God's interaction with mankind as not being limited to just the history of the Bible, but as an ongoing and continuous interaction with humanity towards a positive future.

A LOT of TOLers are under the impression you are MAD and/or Open Theist :nono: Brinsmead was a Seventh Day Adventist back when 7th Day was outside the camp producing the likes of the Urantia Book and some of the odd ideas of Ellen G. You SUDDENLY make a LOT of sense to me, Robert. You are a Seventh Day Adventist yet. Your whole persona on TOL can be understood in that light, including your angst against Calvinism, the only thing that really unites you to TOL in the first place. Without that, you have no ear on TOL. Nobody is really interested in Seventh Day Adventists otherwise.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If it was GOD's will to make it impossible for some to believe, then any Calvinists attempt to covert them is actually opposing GOD's will.

I have yet to find the Calvinist or Reformed person that actually believes they are in the conversion business. Rather to a man, they would all state that they use the ordinary means God has commanded to achieve His ends. These means include sharing the things from Scripture they hold dear. The ends are left to God to work out according to His own pleasure.

Or to put another way, according to Calvinism everyone is believing exactly what GOD wants them to believe this very moment.

What God wants He always gets. There are no unfulfilled desires in God. He is not wringing His hands in the hopes that His creatures will do what He wants. That you posted what you posted was ordained by God. That ordination includes the ability He granted you, the ability to choose according to your greatest inclinations at the moment you so choose. You were inclined to post, you posted. Had you not posted, then not posting was your greatest inclination. Of course, had that happened it would have been encompassed by the ordaining decree of God from eternity.

When you posted, you felt no constraints, you did not think you were being manipulated like a puppet on a string, etc. Thus is the workings of God's ordination and man's self-determination granted by God to all His moral creatures. That I believe what God ordained I would believe includes the "I" aspect. My own volition. Again, God ordination includes the very freedom we should be claiming. So it is error to make a statement like you have done without including the full understanding of what God's decree encompasses.

And yet, the Calvinists here are trying to get you to have a different view this moment.
Why would they attempt to do that if everyone is believing what GOD wants them to believe at this moment????

Rather, Calvinists are relying upon the means granted by God and leaving the outcomes (the ends) to Him and Him alone.
Who is to say that someone at some determined point in time by God will read this exchange and decide rightly? If he or she does so, that too will be the ordination of God.

In truth, the Calvinist cannot even know if he himself is an elect one, because GOD has ordained that some believe a lie that they believe is actually truth.
How can any Calvinist know if they are one of the ones that GOD ordained to BELIEVE a lie?

Even if they claim "know them by their fruits" does not help them because GOD could ordain them to misunderstand the fruit they believe is good.

The true believer is taught from Scripture they may know with full assurance that they are among those chosen by God to eternal life. This infallible assurance is not the essence of faith, rather it is that a true believer may wait long, and become conflicted with many difficulties, before he partakes of this full assurance: (See 1 John 5:13, Isa. 50:10, Mark 9:24, Psalm 88, Psalm 77:1-12). Yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, the believer may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain this full assurance (1 Cor. 2:12, 1 John 4:13, Heb. 6:11-12, Eph. 3:17). Unfortunately, some rely upon subjective experiences versus the objective promises of the Gospel. Sadly, the result is that they who were concerned about the welfare of their soul turn attention to themselves rather than to the word of God, and spend their life in morbid introspection.

That there are those that believe a lie is not a claim that God is the doer of their unbelief. As I have stated, God's ordination includes the self-determination of the moral agent, the ability to choose according to one's own inclinations at the moment they so choose. This is the only free will any Calvinist will grant when using the term. That no one is able to fully reconcile exactly how God pulls this off is no excuse to deny that predestination unto salvation and man's self-determination are treated as friends in Scripture. Unfortunately, some would seek to know more than they have warrant to know and cobble together all manner of oddities as relates to what God really is and how God really works.

Self-determination is not the so-called libertarian free will (the liberty of indifference) that hold persons may do other than what they are inclined to do. No such arbitrariness exists in moral agents. Yes, and before you would opine, God has a hand in your inclinations. They are born from your own experiences, education, upbringing, location, and many other factors under the providential care of God. The very fact that you were born in a country with much exposure to the Gospel is certainly a blessing ordained by God. That you were born in New Guinea among the savages and may never hear the Gospel is also ordained by God. Sometimes the place of birth is actual judgment from God who sees fit to leave some in their unbelief, for all are fallen in Adam. No one is born morally neutral and becomes a sinner who sins. All are born sinners, and sin because they are sinners. Yet no man is without excuse, believing lies, as we know from Romans 1.

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

:doh:



A LOT of TOLers are under the impression you are MAD and/or Open Theist :nono: Brinsmead was a Seventh Day Adventist back when 7th Day was outside the camp producing the likes of the Urantia Book and some of the odd ideas of Ellen G. You SUDDENLY make a LOT of sense to me, Robert. You are a Seventh Day Adventist yet. Your whole persona on TOL can be understood in that light, including your angst against Calvinism, the only thing that really unites you to TOL in the first place. Without that, you have no ear on TOL. Nobody is really interested in Seventh Day Adventists otherwise.

You don't have the facts. Brinsmead was kicked out of the Seventh day church because of his stand for the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. There are plenty of people reading my post. Christians are hungry for the truth. The Gospel and justification by faith is the truth. I don't belong to any church or denomination. I am a Gospel believing Christian. You need to get the facts strait before you start running off at the mouth.

 

[God's Truth]

Persons have a tendency to speak before they think. I am not one of those persons. Hence, I generally take great care in what I say and how I say it. That includes taking the time to understand the person to whom I respond. If you are going to attempt to walk in another person's shoes and tell him what he believes, you would do well to try those shoes on beforehand.

Those that continually wander about making drive-by posts in all manner of threads amply demonstrate their lack of stewardship of the time they have been given. Your life is not this board or any other. Yet, it seems you are unable to tear yourself away from its often subtle temptations that tickle your desire to be seen everywhere. Be seen and be heard. Being seen and not heard comes from the contempt that arises in others when you makes oneself an annoyance because there is no word or thought in your head that does not escape being placed on the screen.

You are not a voice crying in the wilderness. You are not an anointed one. You are just a lonely and confused lady seeking validation from others and who obviously cannot manage her time very well. I continue to pray for you about these things.

AMR

You are every single negative thing that you say about me, and more.

By the way, I didn't read anything in this long post that you wrote, I just knew it was full of false accusations and judgment.

 

[Tambora]

The true believer is taught from Scripture they may know with full assurance that they are among those chosen by God to eternal life.

You believe you are.
Clete believes he is.

Since both of you believe that you have that full assurance, it is GOD's will that you both believe what you do.
GOD ordained you both to believe that what you believe is correct and true to His word.

So if Clete is believing exactly as GOD ordained him to believe, then who are you to tell Clete he should be believing something different than what GOD ordained him to believe?

To tell someone they should believe something different than what they believe is to tell them they should believe something GOD did not ordain then to believe.
No Calvinists should be telling Clete that he should be believing something different than what GOD has ordained him to believe.

If Clete is believing a lie is truth, then a lie is what GOD ordained him to believe is truth.
That makes GOD the sovereign cause of all lies believed, as all actions of man are determined by GOD.

 

[Lon]

Then do you not see that telling Clete he is believing wrongly is going against GOD's will of what Clete should be believing at this moment?

Yes, I believe that. We are learning in our walk. Proverbs 16:9

Is it wrong for someone to believe what GOD has ordained them to believe?

I have yet to find the Calvinist or Reformed person that actually believes they are in the conversion business. Rather to a man, they would all state that they use the ordinary means God has commanded to achieve His ends. These means include sharing the things from Scripture they hold dear. The ends are left to God to work out according to His own pleasure.

:up: Proverbs 16:9 God says "BUT!" It is the 'but,' to me, that is important. Yes, we can believe what is wrong. God doesn't want us ignorant, or in sin, rather Romans 8:28 Proverbs 16:9 tell us God has final authority all the time. Where we 'are' is not where we will be.

Example: Regardless of Clete's stance, it affords an opportunity to discuss important matters. As inept and childish as he has been this thread, it has led, by example, to your and my more meaningful exchange and, I believe, a better use of this thread and honoring to God because it is genuine, honest, and both of us seeking to honor God, among what we both cherish in God in common, as well as being used by God to hone or change our conceptions. Ecclesiastes 3:1 to Proverbs 16:4

 

[Tambora]

Yes, I believe that. We are learning in our walk. Proverbs 16:9




:up: Proverbs 16:9 God says "BUT!" It is the 'but,' to me, that is important. Yes, we can believe what is wrong. God doesn't want us ignorant, or in sin, rather Romans 8:28 Proverbs 16:9 tell us God has final authority all the time. Where we 'are' is not where we will be.

Example: Regardless of Clete's stance, it affords an opportunity to discuss important matters. As inept and childish as he has been this thread, it has led, by example, to your and my more meaningful exchange and, I believe, a better use of this thread and honoring to God because it is genuine, honest, and both of us seeking to honor God, among what we both cherish in God in common, as well as being used by God to hone or change our conceptions. Ecclesiastes 3:1 to Proverbs 16:4

Can you give a yes or no to whether it would be wrong for one to believe a lie that GOD ordained him to believe?

 

[God's Truth]

Can you give a yes or no to whether it would be wrong for one to believe a lie that GOD ordained him to believe?

You got some good stuff going on against the Calvinists...but...

 

[Lon]

Can you give a yes or no to whether it would be wrong for one to believe a lie that GOD ordained him to believe?

Yes, it is wrong.

One of my professors, not a Calvinist, said it was a two-sided coin, "All who will come/Saved from the foundation of the world"
Our whole struggle is over sin and all we who believe, want it gone. You and I know that it will be gone, that's the end of the book. We are all in process, so yes, we are all in 'wrong' to that extent. Romans 8:28 I have to believe God is doing something else the answer would be that all who come to Christ would be to die and go immediately to perfection. Somehow, God is able to work all things to good. So while you and I struggle with the bad in our lives and theology, it all is to bring us to good, somehow. There is always a mystery to me, more so than MAD or OV. I am not the dispenser of God's truth and never argue to make a Calvinist out of anybody. Rather, I want to discuss things that have scriptural importance and value for our lives. Thank you, btw, for this discussion. Simply being genuine and thoughtful is, I think, a service to this thread and TOL, I don't think we are trying to make clones of one another, but shove each other closer to Him. That can be no poor endeavor and I thank you, humbly, for the service of it and, prayerfully of service to you as well. -Lon

 

[Tambora]

Yes, it is wrong.

Then you are saying that it is wrong for one to do exactly as GOD ordained him to do.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, it is wrong.

One of my professors, not a Calvinist,...

A Calvinist who went to seminary school and had a professor that wasn't a Calvinist? lol

 

[Lon]

So if Clete is believing exactly as GOD ordained him to believe, then who are you to tell Clete he should be believing something different than what GOD ordained him to believe?

Nobody, God will just use words as He sees fit. If we use better words than "Calvinism Stinks!" It'll go further in serving Him. Stewardship is important. Proverbs 27:17 (I think again, an illustration of Proverbs 16:9 and the fore mentioned two-sided coin).

To tell someone they should believe something different than what they believe is to tell them they should believe something GOD did not ordain then to believe.

Journey vs. Standing still and stagnant. There is a reason God brings us through valleys else, again, I think the answer would be to bring us to heaven. Part of this is His greater plan to bring in the full number. Romans 11:25
Matthew 13:24-30 I think gives a glimpse into God's mind. My first couple of times with that passage, I never realized how much depth it brings to Calvinism/freewill threads. I think it a very important passage when we are trying to understand Proverbs 16:9 that expresses the dichotomy between free and Sovereignly ordained, by tension. 1 Corinthians 3:15 whatever 'our will' has wrought is of no account and such is very much embraced by MAD. Clete's poor theology and poor attempts will simply count for nothing. Only God's plans are what stands. Only what is done in Christ will last and stand.

No Calvinists should be telling Clete that he should be believing something different than what GOD has ordained him to believe.

Agree, the only struggle I've ever seen that is of eternal consequence, is inside of men. We are immature, 1 Corinthians 13:11,12 one day we will be mature. 1 John 3:2

If Clete is believing a lie is truth, then a lie is what GOD ordained him to believe is truth.

Yes, but these are steps, a process, not a stopping place. Clete is in God's hands, even his immaturity in discussing important matters of God.
To me, Clete is much more interested in championing Open Theology and his understanding, imperfect as he knows it is, as if it were flawless. He argues exactly from that position. Proverbs 18:17 Every interaction is ordained by God. If one is more hardened, another may be softened by the return in dialogue. Some Calvinists argue the same, I try not to. Rather, I try to discuss, like we are doing here, that we may share God's scriptures and give God's word in service to one another. We are a body Romans 12:5 1 Thessalonians 5:11,14

That makes GOD the sovereign cause of all lies believed, as all actions of man are determined by GOD.

If Calvinism meant that, I, with you, would never espouse that. AMR explains this better, but primary and secondary causes need to be considered and embraced by every Calvinist. I'm echoing Matthew 13:24-30 and my comments above as well as expressing by it, that there is a 'freedom' and pain to the Lord Jesus Christ's analogy. We are in a terrible predicament. Angels are stayed that none of us will be lost. I take comfort, that He knows what He is doing. It is, I think, a genuinely Calvinist expression and comfort, but I think it comforts all of us who are His. His whole plan is salvation and our good. I know, like a poor bowler, I'm bumping along. Some bowl better than others in this life. For one who bowls (lives) better, there will not be as many days in the gutter either side. Only our Lord and Savior bowled a 300 by analogy. We are all caught in His hands at the end, strike, spare or miss, we are in His hands. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Then you are saying that it is wrong for one to do exactly as GOD ordained him to do.

Yes Matthew 13:24-30 God has greater things in mind than removing all the weeds around us, the salvation of what He cherishes.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes Matthew 13:24-30 God has greater things in mind than removing all the weeds around us, the salvation of what He cherishes.

The salvation of what he cherishes has already taken place in Jesus Christ. Open your eyes. You have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. God offers the free gift of salvation to everyone. All that he asks of you is to believe it.

 

[Tambora]

I have yet to find the Calvinist or Reformed person that actually believes they are in the conversion business.

Good for them, cause if they actually had a genuine desire for Clete to change his mind about what he believed, then their heart's desire would be going against what GOD desires.

 

[Tambora]

Then you are saying that it is wrong for one to do exactly as GOD ordained him to do.

Yes

Then you are against GOD's will, you are against what GOD has ordained.

 

[Tambora]

So if Clete is believing exactly as GOD ordained him to believe, then who are you to tell Clete he should be believing something different than what GOD ordained him to believe?

Nobody,

You are somebody that is saying that it is wrong for a person to be as GOD ordained that person to be.
Does that honestly sound logical to you?

 

[Clete]

This is a good point, Clete.

If it was GOD's will to make it impossible for some to believe, then any Calvinists attempt to covert them is actually opposing GOD's will.
Or to put another way, according to Calvinism everyone is believing exactly what GOD wants them to believe this very moment.
And yet, the Calvinists here are trying to get you to have a different view this moment.
Why would they attempt to do that if everyone is believing what GOD wants them to believe at this moment????

Their answer will be, or at least it should be...

"Becuase God predestined that I make such an attempt."

It is the epitome of unfalsifiable nonsense.

In truth, the Calvinist cannot even know if he himself is an elect one, because GOD has ordained that some believe a lie that they believe is actually truth.
How can any Calvinist know if they are one of the ones that GOD ordained to BELIEVE a lie?

Even if they claim "know them by their fruits" does not help them because GOD could ordain them to misunderstand the fruit they believe is good.

Precisely!

Every thought in their heads was immutably ordained by God before they existed including every truth and every lie, no matter how small or how great. Every thought of genius as well as every murderous plot was all conceived first by their make believe god who then predestined them to not only think it but to believe it and to act on it.

They will, in the next breath, tell you that we are all responsible for the things we do and call it justice. If you find one that acknowledges the conflict, he'll immediately pull out the "antinomy" trump card and blank it out from his mind. Otherwise, they'll redefine the word justice and blank the conflict from their mind in that way. Either way, it is the concept of justice that debases their minds.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Yes Matthew 13:24-30 God has greater things in mind than removing all the weeds around us, the salvation of what He cherishes.

Lon, you missed her point.

She asked you if you thought it was wrong of you to try to convince me to believe other than what you believe your god ordained me to believe.

You said, "Yes, I do" (In so many words).

She then asked whether you acknowledge that it is wrong for one to do exactly as GOD ordained him to do. She wasn't asking about my actions anymore, she was asking about yours!

You MUST believe that you were predestined to make an attempt to try to convince me to believe and act differently than what your god had ordained before I existed, which you just admitted was a wrong thing to do. So you believe that the god you worship predestined you to sinfully attempt to alter something else that he had predestined.

What's more is that you speak of it as though you could and should have done otherwise as though that was somehow possible!


Your whole life is lived in contradiction to your doctrine! Especially every syllable you type on this website, the motivation for which is to convince someone that what your god predestined them to believe is false!

How can you not see it?! Is it because your god has predestined your blindness? Why follow such a god?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[musterion]

Lon, you missed her point.

She asked you if you thought it was wrong of you to try to convince me to believe other than what you believe your god ordained me to believe.

You said, "Yes, I do" (In so many words).

She then asked whether you acknowledge that it is wrong for one to do exactly as GOD ordained him to do. She wasn't asking about my actions anymore, she was asking about yours!

You MUST believe that you were predestined to make an attempt to try to convince me to believe and act differently than what your god had ordained before I existed, which you just admitted was a wrong thing to do. So you believe that the god you worship predestined you to sinfully attempt to alter something else that he had predestined.

What's more is that you speak of it as though you could and should have done otherwise as though that was somehow possible!

[and that you, Clete, could act contra-foreordination as well]

Your whole life is lived in contradiction to your doctrine! Especially every syllable you type on this website, the motivation for which is to convince someone that what your god predestined them to believe is false!

How can you not see it?! Is it because your god has predestined your blindness? Why follow such a god?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Gotta say, Lon, he's got you there.