How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[way 2 go]

yup...even demons love dat pork chops n bacon...

ummmm...nobody said you did...this isn’t all about you no matter how hard you try...sorry your narcissism causes you to jump into other people’s conversation...and doesn’t let you read what other scholars say about these events...like the links I provided...keep that head in that sand buddy...just keep reading your own stuff

straw man down

not just mine but the witch’s...she said it was a ghost wearing a robe...is why they are known as soothesayers and not deadraisers...they SAY they bring up the dead to SOOTHE...when even according to the Bosomville parable Abraham doesnt let anybody uptop as they wouldnt believe one risen from the dead...

looked like Samuel because it was Samuel
and still no indication from the text that it was not Samuel

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

Yes it does say Samuel doesnt it...hey, did you happen to notice the title of the book this event occurs in is Samuel? So at what point did Samuel mail it in from Bosomville?

I mean jewish tradition says he wrote it...probably cuz it has his name on it? It is written that way...so it must be true...

so now 1Sa_25:1 to 1Sa_31:13 is a lie?

so what you believe is not biblical , good to know.

 

[way 2 go]

Heb 6:18 ... it is impossible for God to lie,

Heb 6:18 ... it is impossible for God to lie,

he repeats over and over...

you still have cognitive dissonance

He did He stated clearly His friend Lazarus was dead not in Bosomville.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

nope I never said He lied here...you said I said...liar

you just said "Lazarus was dead not in Bosomville"

and Jesus said
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

actually you know those paragraph headings/title breaks?

yes

Yup says “parable” not “historical event”

liar

 

[clefty]

straw man down

looked like Samuel because it was Samuel

looked to her like Samuel Saul didnt see anything is why he asked her what she saw and she described something Saul actually didnt see but from her description he perceived it to be...cuz he was looking for him...

and still no indication from the text that it was not Samuel

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,[/quote] again you dont appreciate what great literature and prose does for people to enjoy.

For instance look at Judges 9

“When Jotham heard this, he went and stood on the top of Mount Gerizim. He shouted to the people: “Listen to me, you leaders of Shechem, so that God will listen to you! 8 One day the trees decided to appoint a king to rule over them. They said to the olive tree, ‘You be king over us!’

9 “But the olive tree said, ‘Men and gods are honored by my oil. Should I stop making it and go and sway over the other trees?’”

Now what does scripture say? Trees talk...serpents talk...donkeys talk...rocks cry out...

so now 1Sa_25:1 to 1Sa_31:13 is a lie?

dont forget 2 Samuel too...and no not a lie...I have that ability to understand that sometimes things written are written from points of view also known as focalization...well Saul thought knew perceived it was Samuel...based on description...

But how could an obedient prophet like Samuel since childhood eager to do His will now going against His will...communicating through an abomination to Him and behind his Master’s back...and even to the very one his Master rejected...

so what you believe is not biblical , good to know.

No see what you actually believe is...that witches have power over His sleeping saints to ring them to the surface...despite what Abraham teaches that there is NOT conviction if “one is risen from the dead.”

 

[clefty]

you still have cognitive dissonance

He did send lying spirits...but not in this case...spirit told the truth...

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

yes about that...was it Lazarus’s physical body or how exactly do spirits carry spirits...it had to be physical body but then how do spirits move physical things ...and as well the rich man was buried too and in this nonbiblical jewish version of the legend of hell asked for physical water to soothe his physical tongue...but how come so many times graves are uncovered bones still there nobody is whisked away?

Like the real Lazarus raised from the dead after four days and not one peep of his time in Bosomville...his body was still there still wrapped...no whisking away by angels...

Who’s bosom does Abraham rest in? How many bodies rest in this bosom?

 

[iouae]

If this was a recorded event having actually occured in Bosomville such a central witness as the rich man was should also have a name.

I think it is only fair we demand to know what the rich man’s name was...and maybe even his 5 brothers...scripture is good at documenting protagonists and such...of actual events...

And add to that who was the reporter who witnessed this event in Bosomville and came back with the story?

Surely they could have remembered to include the rich man’s name too...

When I am deciding doctrine for myself, I start with concrete scriptures, and only look at "parables" and other iffy stories last. "Thou shalt not surely die" is in the Bible. But who spoke it? A snake, inspired by Satan. Likewise the Samuel story. It is most likely the medium speaking. And the story/parable of Lazarus? Where do the definite scriptures like the following fit into the Lazarus parable?

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

All the references to the dead being asleep, Daniel told to wait and he would arise, Job saying he would wait till his change came etc.

Then I ask how these fit into the Lazarus story. BTW most folks when they read DEFINITE scriptures like the dead going down into silence, switch their brain to "Bibleread" mode, meaning probably has some hidden meaning. They should be asking "What if this is literal?"

So lets see where asleep, waiting, silence etc. could fit into the Lazarus story. And I have found where it does.

There is a time after death when the dead sleep/rest. They are still with the Lord. Nothing is lost, and their next waking moment will be like when we wake up and 9 hours of sleep have passed.

The rich man has woken up on earth, in the end times when God destroys the wicked.
It is obvious that this is the first time he is speaking to Abraham since he is discussing what is on his heart for the first time, viz. his brothers. He obviously has not asked or discussed this question before with Ab. Unless the rick man is like way-to-go who keeps asking the same question over and over, and as many times as you answer him, he forgets your past answer. That is the only other possibility. The rich man is like way-to-go and is in a loop of endless asking and forgetting, asking and.... I feel like I am in hell

So the rich man wakes up on earth before it is finally cauterised by the lake of fire/burning lava, which he sees approaching. The rich man has mental stress like I experienced before speaking at that funeral which completely dried out my mouth, and a small bit of water loosened my tongue which was sticking to my mouth. I also appreciate the dryness of mouth my Saviour must have experienced on the cross, and where the Devil offers Him vinegar to test Him (since He said He would no more eat the fruit of the vine).

The rich man gets his answer. Abraham is not as patient as you Clefty, to keep repeating the answer to way-to-go. Abraham tells the rich man, and leaves. All that is left to happen is for the molten lava to roll over the rich man (as Peter said, the elements will melt together) before the New Heaven and earth, and New Jerusalem descends down from Heaven.

So call most of Luke 16 real and a snapshot at the end when all is about to be burnt up.

I can already hear way-to-go whining "But there seemed to be no gap between Luke 16:22 the rich man dying, and Luke 16:23 the rich man being in hell and lifting up his eyes. My answer to way-to-go is, that is how death works Sparky. Same way as sleep duh. Time passes and you are unaware of it. Way-to-go has slept, so I refuse to explain time passing in sleep to him. And he has read the many scriptures saying dead is like sleep, including when Jesus' friend Lazarus slept and Christ called Lazarus' death "sleep". How close must one place the dots together, before some folks get to join them correctly?

 

[iouae]

Again sorry for your loss...when we do check that box off and then do the good works it really paints a big target on our backs...Satan works all the harder to overpower one...

I dont know how others can cope without the hope...of resurrection to Him and His better buildings for us...may it bring comfort to you that he sleeps no pain no suffering but rests...waiting for that day...for Him...for the rest of us

Thanks again Clefty. His death got me thinking about why folks who seemingly have it all, still get so depressed, that death seems better than the hopelessness of life. And I do not see the the poor people of Africa and the Middle East who DO live in hopeless conditions being as suicidal as the rich folks of the West. To poor folks, they get "depressed" when it's their third day without food, not because "My Daddy never loved me, and that is why my self esteem is so low" which is where I trace the root of my friend's self esteem issues back to.

Has God blessed us in the Christian West so much, and are we so pampered that "My Daddy never loved me" becomes all consuming? Must God give us real problems, end-time conditions, before we stop wanting to blot out our fabulous lives with drugs and suicide? It got me thinking about these issues - a place I hate my mind going to, because at the best of times, I agree with Solomon "All IS vanity". Everything we do is pointless. And that thought depresses me.

 

[way 2 go]

looked to her like Samuel Saul didnt see anything is why he asked her what she saw and she described something Saul actually didnt see but from her description he perceived it to be...cuz he was looking for him...

conjecture , text does not say anything about what Saul saw or did not see.

but it does say Samuel asked a question & Saul answered


1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

again you dont appreciate what great literature and prose does for people to enjoy.

For instance look at Judges 9

“When Jotham heard this, he went and stood on the top of Mount Gerizim. He shouted to the people: “Listen to me, you leaders of Shechem, so that God will listen to you! 8 One day the trees decided to appoint a king to rule over them. They said to the olive tree, ‘You be king over us!’

9 “But the olive tree said, ‘Men and gods are honored by my oil. Should I stop making it and go and sway over the other trees?’”

Now what does scripture say? Trees talk...serpents talk...donkeys talk...rocks cry out...

literal , nothing from the text to suggest otherwise .

1Sa 28:3 Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land.
1Sa 28:4 The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa.
1Sa 28:5 When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly.
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets.

dont forget 2 Samuel too...and no not a lie...I have that ability to understand that sometimes things written are written from points of view also known as focalization...well Saul thought knew perceived it was Samuel...based on description...

conjecture

But how could an obedient prophet like Samuel since childhood eager to do His will now going against His will...communicating through an abomination to Him and behind his Master’s back...and even to the very one his Master rejected...

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.

No see what you actually believe is...that witches have power over His sleeping saints to ring them to the surface...despite what Abraham teaches that there is NOT conviction if “one is risen from the dead.”

liar

 

[iouae]

All of the following scriptures speak of a delay between death and resurrection, often referred to as the sleep of death.

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 14:14
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Th 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Pe 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Psa 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Jhn 11:13
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

 

[way 2 go]

When I am deciding doctrine for myself, I start with concrete scriptures, and only look at "parables" and other iffy stories last. "Thou shalt not surely die" is in the Bible. But who spoke it? A snake, inspired by Satan.

God spoke this .
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

and the day that Adam & Eve ate from the tree, they died that day .

Likewise the Samuel story. It is most likely the medium speaking.

except the fact that the bible says its Samuel
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

And the story/parable of Lazarus? Where do the definite scriptures like the following fit into the Lazarus parable?

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

dead know not any thing .here.
neither have they any more a reward .here.
for the memory of them is forgotten .here.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

3.Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

All the references to the dead being asleep, Daniel told to wait and he would arise, Job saying he would wait till his change came etc.

Then I ask how these fit into the Lazarus story.

Spoiler

BTW most folks when they read DEFINITE scriptures like the dead going down into silence, switch their brain to "Bibleread" mode, meaning probably has some hidden meaning. They should be asking "What if this is literal?"

So lets see where asleep, waiting, silence etc. could fit into the Lazarus story. And I have found where it does.

There is a time after death when the dead sleep/rest. They are still with the Lord. Nothing is lost, and their next waking moment will be like when we wake up and 9 hours of sleep have passed.

The rich man has woken up on earth, in the end times when God destroys the wicked.
It is obvious that this is the first time he is speaking to Abraham since he is discussing what is on his heart for the first time, viz. his brothers. He obviously has not asked or discussed this question before with Ab. Unless the rick man is like way-to-go who keeps asking the same question over and over, and as many times as you answer him, he forgets your past answer. That is the only other possibility. The rich man is like way-to-go and is in a loop of endless asking and forgetting, asking and.... I feel like I am in hell

So the rich man wakes up on earth before it is finally cauterised by the lake of fire/burning lava, which he sees approaching. The rich man has mental stress like I experienced before speaking at that funeral which completely dried out my mouth, and a small bit of water loosened my tongue which was sticking to my mouth. I also appreciate the dryness of mouth my Saviour must have experienced on the cross, and where the Devil offers Him vinegar to test Him (since He said He would no more eat the fruit of the vine).

The rich man gets his answer. Abraham is not as patient as you Clefty, to keep repeating the answer to way-to-go. Abraham tells the rich man, and leaves. All that is left to happen is for the molten lava to roll over the rich man (as Peter said, the elements will melt together) before the New Heaven and earth, and New Jerusalem descends down from Heaven.

So call most of Luke 16 real and a snapshot at the end when all is about to be burnt up.

I can already hear way-to-go whining "But there seemed to be no gap between Luke 16:22 the rich man dying, and Luke 16:23 the rich man being in hell and lifting up his eyes. My answer to way-to-go is, that is how death works Sparky. Same way as sleep duh. Time passes and you are unaware of it. Way-to-go has slept, so I refuse to explain time passing in sleep to him. And he has read the many scriptures saying dead is like sleep, including when Jesus' friend Lazarus slept and Christ called Lazarus' death "sleep". How close must one place the dots together, before some folks get to join them correctly?

FACT:Jesus recounting of The Rich Man and Lazarus, is past tense.

so much conjecture

its like garbage everywhere

 

[meshak]

God spoke this .
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

and the day Adam & Eve died the day they ate from the tree



except the fact that the bible says its Samuel
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,


dead know not any thing .here.
neither have they any more a reward .here.
for the memory of them is forgotten .here.



3.Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”




FACT:Jesus recounting of The Rich Man and Lazarus, is past tense.

so much conjecture

its like garbage everywhere

stop spreading garbage everywhere, for pets sake.

 

[iouae]

FACT:Jesus recounting of The Rich Man and Lazarus, is past tense.

If its past tense, and a true story, then Abraham is alive now, and we indeed are speaking garbage.

But then you would have to explain away all the other scriptures I quoted in #508.

 

[clefty]

When I am deciding doctrine for myself, I start with concrete scriptures, and only look at "parables" and other iffy stories last.

sounds good...

"Thou shalt not surely die" is in the Bible. But who spoke it? A snake, inspired by Satan. Likewise the Samuel story. It is most likely the medium speaking.

and as with Peter’s talking donkey...read only that text and you would assume donkeys spoke...its because one read the scope of scripture you better understand the nuance and understanding all great literature infers

And the story/parable of Lazarus? Where do the definite scriptures like the following fit into the Lazarus parable?

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

All the references to the dead being asleep, Daniel told to wait and he would arise, Job saying he would wait till his change came etc.

Then I ask how these fit into the Lazarus story. BTW most folks when they read DEFINITE scriptures like the dead going down into silence, switch their brain to "Bibleread" mode, meaning probably has some hidden meaning. They should be asking "What if this is literal?"

humans are creatures of habit and find comfort in them...beliefs from childhood on are most difficult to change...”train a child” right? And this immortality thingy is most comforting and necessary for even more beliefs to hang from...prayers to (dead) saints...image making to assist with that...guilt and fear are great motivators and the church benefitted greatly scaring them in but also keeping them in and comforted knowing grandma is in heaven looking down...

So lets see where asleep, waiting, silence etc. could fit into the Lazarus story. And I have found where it does.

There is a time after death when the dead sleep/rest. They are still with the Lord. Nothing is lost, and their next waking moment will be like when we wake up and 9 hours of sleep have passed.

The rich man has woken up on earth, in the end times when God destroys the wicked.

I dont see it as that but as purely an allegory...like Santa is useful to teach other lessons...jews hijacked another story and brought it into their use and merely used it to tie up the “now what?” end of life...all other cultures around them had after life stories and gods and heroes and NOT having anything wasnt satisfying...so like the other idols they coopted for use themselves they rebaptized this folktale and put Abraham in it...

It is obvious that this is the first time he is speaking to Abraham since he is discussing what is on his heart for the first time, viz. his brothers.

yes I am sure he didnt wait long for to ask for water

He obviously has not asked or discussed this question before with Ab. Unless the rick man is like way-to-go who keeps asking the same question over and over, and as many times as you answer him, he forgets your past answer. That is the only other possibility. The rich man is like way-to-go and is in a loop of endless asking and forgetting, asking and.... I feel like I am in hell

haha yes poor Abraham must have quite abit of longsuffering and patience as I imagine the rich man is not the only person who has a list of demands from the tormented...but see again this being an old tale makes it hard for me to see it as an end time tale exactly because as you said he is requesting for the first time...and since this story is upgraded from bosomville to post cross heaven and hell then this keeps the story pre cross

So the rich man wakes up on earth before it is finally cauterised by the lake of fire/burning lava, which he sees approaching.

ok but not as I see it...

The rich man has mental stress like I experienced before speaking at that funeral which completely dried out my mouth, and a small bit of water loosened my tongue which was sticking to my mouth. I also appreciate the dryness of mouth my Saviour must have experienced on the cross, and where the Devil offers Him vinegar to test Him (since He said He would no more eat the fruit of the vine).

but you and He on the cross were dealing with physical fleshy tongues...

The rich man gets his answer. Abraham is not as patient as you Clefty, to keep repeating the answer to way-to-go.

again ha...

Abraham tells the rich man, and leaves.

I dont see that either...there is great comfort in the icon in ones mind of Abraham being just there...remaining there...far off to be sure but still able to reach with requests and viewed seated cradling one newly arrived into bosomville...

All that is left to happen is for the molten lava to roll over the rich man (as Peter said, the elements will melt together) before the New Heaven and earth, and New Jerusalem descends down from Heaven.

ummm dude this is not a real place and a real time event like the New Jerusalem cant impact it as it is NOT a real place but lives in the minds of those needing it...

So call most of Luke 16 real and a snapshot at the end when all is about to be burnt up.

can’t it cheapens your earlier insight it already happened and the rich man was denied long ago...Abraham actually teaching NO ONE COMES BACK as they are not believed anyway...this story came from and was for Jews with no end of the world revelations...

I can already hear way-to-go whining "But there seemed to be no gap between Luke 16:22 the rich man dying, and Luke 16:23 the rich man being in hell and lifting up his eyes. My answer to way-to-go is, that is how death works Sparky. Same way as sleep duh. Time passes and you are unaware of it. Way-to-go has slept, so I refuse to explain time passing in sleep to him. And he has read the many scriptures saying dead is like sleep, including when Jesus' friend Lazarus slept and Christ called Lazarus' death "sleep". How close must one place the dots together, before some folks get to join them correctly?

again it’s a myth a folktale and you are ascribing more to it than it can hold...it is not real nor a teaching of end time events but a feel good joke about the rich getting it in the end...YAY POOR...that angels carry Lazarus’s body is enough to prove that...graves are opened and the bones of the dead faithful saints are still there...NO CARRYING AWAY BY ANGELS TO BOSOMVILLE

 

[patrick jane]

sounds good...

and as with Peter’s talking donkey...read only that text and you would assume donkeys spoke...its because one read the scope of scripture you better understand the nuance and understanding all great literature infers

humans are creatures of habit and find comfort in them...beliefs from childhood on are most difficult to change...”train a child” right? And this immortality thingy is most comforting and necessary for even more beliefs to hang from...prayers to (dead) saints...image making to assist with that...guilt and fear are great motivators and the church benefitted greatly scaring them in but also keeping them in and comforted knowing grandma is in heaven looking down...

So lets see where asleep, waiting, silence etc. could fit into the Lazarus story. And I have found where it does.

There is a time after death when the dead sleep/rest. They are still with the Lord. Nothing is lost, and their next waking moment will be like when we wake up and 9 hours of sleep have passed.

I dont see it as that but as purely an allegory...like Santa is useful to teach other lessons...jews hijacked another story and brought it into their use and merely used it to tie up the “now what?” end of life...all other cultures around them had after life stories and gods and heroes and NOT having anything wasnt satisfying...so like the other idols they coopted for use themselves they rebaptized this folktale and put Abraham in it...


yes I am sure he didnt wait long for to ask for water
haha yes poor Abraham must have quite abit of longsuffering and patience as I imagine the rich man is not the only person who has a list of demands from the tormented...but see again this being an old tale makes it hard for me to see it as an end time tale exactly because as you said he is requesting for the first time...and since this story is upgraded from bosomville to post cross heaven and hell then this keeps the story pre cross

ok but not as I see it...

but you and He on the cross were dealing with physical fleshy tongues...

again ha...

I dont see that either...there is great comfort in the icon in ones mind of Abraham being just there...remaining there...far off to be sure but still able to reach with requests and viewed seated cradling one newly arrived into bosomville...

ummm dude this is not a real place and a real time event like the New Jerusalem cant impact it as it is NOT a real place but lives in the minds of those needing it...

can’t it cheapens your earlier insight it already happened and the rich man was denied long ago...Abraham actually teaching NO ONE COMES BACK as they are not believed anyway...this story came from and was for Jews with no end of the world revelations...

again it’s a myth a folktale and you are ascribing more to it than it can hold...it is not real nor a teaching of end time events but a feel good joke about the rich getting it in the end...YAY POOR...that angels carry Lazarus’s body is enough to prove that...graves are opened and the bones of the dead faithful saints are still there...NO CARRYING AWAY BY ANGELS TO BOSOMVILLE

2 Corinthians 4:1-10 KJV -
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

 

[clefty]

Thanks again Clefty. His death got me thinking about why folks who seemingly have it all, still get so depressed, that death seems better than the hopelessness of life.

satan oppresses two ways by desolation (people curse Yah) and opulence (people forget Yah) read again the curses waiting for those who do NOT “do these and live”...Solomon had it all and went mad to prove all is vanity...LIVE FOR YAH

And I do not see the the poor people of Africa and the Middle East who DO live in hopeless conditions being as suicidal as the rich folks of the West. To poor folks, they get "depressed" when it's their third day without food, not because "My Daddy never loved me, and that is why my self esteem is so low" which is where I trace the root of my friend's self esteem issues back to.

feelings and emotions are exploited and distorted and counterfeited not disciplined and sacrificed to service for Him they become the very means by which Satan seduces us into melancholia and other narcissistic wallowing...more addictive than opium...and a billion dollar industry...trillion dollar when you realize ALL OF IT is to sustain “MY RIGHT TO BE HAPPY”

there is only one way...LIVE THE WAY YOU WERE CREATED TO LIVE

Has God blessed us in the Christian West so much, and are we so pampered that "My Daddy never loved me" becomes all consuming?

Laodicea is rich...self sufficient...and blessed not by Yah but by the other one seeking to buy everyone their allegiance to him his power and wealth.

Must God give us real problems, end-time conditions, before we stop wanting to blot out our fabulous lives with drugs and suicide?

He wants us to follow Him...His way...going against that is going against natural law...rejecting gravity...blaming it for making you fall...most people are not living but surviving and the loss of this life...theirs or another’s...is meaningless as their life has lost all meaning

It got me thinking about these issues - a place I hate my mind going to, because at the best of times, I agree with Solomon "All IS vanity". Everything we do is pointless. And that thought depresses me.

that is exactly what Satan wants...you depressed...any relationship built on lies and deception becomes an abomination of desolation...there is no life in there...we are to fight against these powers of darkness principles of deceptions and pursue truth...Him His Way...”do this and live”...add Him and live even more abundantly here in these earthly tabernacles AND later when we awake to our HEAVENLY BUILDING part of that reward He brings with Him...HalleluYah

Be strong brother...it’s not what comes into that makes us unclean but that which is in us...die to self that narcissistic view that makes it all about boo hoo me and NOT Him...His way...

 

[clefty]

conjecture , text does not say anything about what Saul saw or did not see.

sure it does...when she saw Samuel she cried out...NOT Saul...Saul didnt do anything BECAUSE HE DIDNT SEE ANYTHING...Saul then asked “what sawest thou?”...and she said gods coming up...still not satisfied BECAUSE HE DONT SEE NOTHING Saul asks again “what form” she describes what everybody knew Samuel wore...and Saul perceived it...knew...BUT DID NOT SEE...specially when he puts his face to the ground...

but it does say Samuel asked a question & Saul answered


1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

I know right?!! that is awesome story telling aint it? Puts you right into Saul’s point of view...like when Eve talked to a snake...or Balaam thought himself silly for talking to a donkey...or the Hebrews knew the golden calf was the one who brought them out of egypt...edge of your seat narration there that is...

literal , nothing from the text to suggest otherwise .

except that one in Chronicles that spoke of Saul being killed for consulting frauds NOT disturbing Samuel in bosomville...

1Sa 28:3 Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land.

uh oh...did scripture just LIE because obviously Saul did NOT put them ALL out of the Land

1Sa 28:4 The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa.
1Sa 28:5 When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly.
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets.

yup...Saul was rejected...you think faithful Samuel would sneak behind his Master’s back?

conjecture

lol

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.

yes you could contribute to the conversation as to the irony that these demons speak truth...

liar

I know you are but what am I...lol

 

[iouae]

satan oppresses two ways by desolation (people curse Yah) and opulence (people forget Yah) read again the curses waiting for those who do NOT “do these and live”...Solomon had it all and went mad to prove all is vanity...LIVE FOR YAH

feelings and emotions are exploited and distorted and counterfeited not disciplined and sacrificed to service for Him they become the very means by which Satan seduces us into melancholia and other narcissistic wallowing...more addictive than opium...and a billion dollar industry...trillion dollar when you realize ALL OF IT is to sustain “MY RIGHT TO BE HAPPY”

there is only one way...LIVE THE WAY YOU WERE CREATED TO LIVE

Laodicea is rich...self sufficient...and blessed not by Yah but by the other one seeking to buy everyone their allegiance to him his power and wealth.

He wants us to follow Him...His way...going against that is going against natural law...rejecting gravity...blaming it for making you fall...most people are not living but surviving and the loss of this life...theirs or another’s...is meaningless as their life has lost all meaning

that is exactly what Satan wants...you depressed...any relationship built on lies and deception becomes an abomination of desolation...there is no life in there...we are to fight against these powers of darkness principles of deceptions and pursue truth...Him His Way...”do this and live”...add Him and live even more abundantly here in these earthly tabernacles AND later when we awake to our HEAVENLY BUILDING part of that reward He brings with Him...HalleluYah

Be strong brother...it’s not what comes into that makes us unclean but that which is in us...die to self that narcissistic view that makes it all about boo hoo me and NOT Him...His way...

Thanks for all the thought that went into this post Clefty. It is far better to get our minds as far away from self and to look to Jesus, and also to appreciate every bit of good in the everyday. God went to a lot of trouble to make this a beautiful and interesting world. I really think the Type A personality which looks for a point to everything, almost the idea of conquering the world, being the best at everything can be a problem.

Anyhow, now it's past so I can forget about thinking about why folks find reasonably good standard of living to be so depressing.

Thanks again

 

[way 2 go]

sure it does...when she saw Samuel she cried out...NOT Saul...Saul didnt do anything BECAUSE HE DIDNT SEE ANYTHING...Saul then asked “what sawest thou?”...and she said gods coming up...still not satisfied BECAUSE HE DONT SEE NOTHING Saul asks again “what form” she describes what everybody knew Samuel wore...and Saul perceived it...knew...BUT DID NOT SEE...specially when he puts his face to the ground...

conjecture , text does not say anything about what Saul saw or did not see.

text does not say what Saul saw.
text does not say that he never saw Samuel .
but it does say Samuel asked a question & Saul answered.
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

she saw Samuel "coming up" and then (my conjecture) Saul could see Samuel once he was above ground.

yup...Saul was rejected...you think faithful Samuel would sneak behind his Master’s back?

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

yes you could contribute to the conversation as to the irony that these demons speak truth...

in this case it was Samuel who spoke the truth & so far all you have is conjecture to say it was not Samuel.

 

[way 2 go]

If its past tense, and a true story, then Abraham is alive now, and we indeed are speaking garbage.

But then you would have to explain away all the other scriptures I quoted in #508.

Abraham is alive now

Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

 

[clefty]

conjecture , text does not say anything about what Saul saw or did not see.

yes it does...he didnt see anything is why he asked twice...”what sawest thou?”...”what form” because if he had seen anything he would not have to aske those two times...and then it scripture says Saul “knew” or “perceived” after she described to Saul something everybody knew Samuel wore...if he saw it she wouldnt have had to describe it...and if he saw it it would have been written “and then Saul SAW it was Samuel...and even if Saul did see it so what? Lucifer is an angel of light you think shape shifting into what Samuel looks like is beyond him?

text does not say what Saul saw.

He saw her...probably the floor his face was planted to kinda like yours but your whole head is in the ground about this...LOL

text does not say that he never saw Samuel

sure it does...or else it would have said Saul SAW Samuel not knew or perceived...

but it does say Samuel asked a question & Saul answered.
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

and trees talk and serpents talk and donkeys talk...

she saw Samuel "coming up" and then (my conjecture) Saul could see Samuel once he was above ground.

yes your conjecture...because he only knew or perceived from what she described seeing...just like the disobedient hebrews perceived or knew the golden calf was the god that brought them out of egypt...

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

right...so why would Samuel answer Saul’s call up from Abraham’s bosom knowing this? Why would he sneak behind His back to meet with one He rejected...could you imagine that conversation? “Hey Samuel where were you?” “Oh I got called uptop to consul Saul” “oh didnt you know He aint talking to him?” “Yeah but I figured I do it anyway” “Well Abraham is upset now cuz he has to change his teaching” “whatever”

in this case it was Samuel who spoke the truth & so far all you have is conjecture to say it was not Samuel.

That and if witches could bring up the dead...well there would be a lot more of that going on...as it was Chronicles has him down as killed for only going to a medium and not for raising Samuel...cuz well even Abraham taught the dead dont convince anyone when risen...

 

[iouae]

Abraham is alive now

Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

If I let parables determine my doctrine, then Luke 16 begins with the parable of the steward who has been squandering his rich master's money. So the master gives the steward notice. And the steward squanders the rich master's money even more, to make friends when he is fired. And Christ commends the steward for his wisdom.

If I were to take this parable as doctrine, then Christ is looking for smart, dishonest followers (Luke 16:8).

And suppose the steward had been given the name "Jeeves", would that turn the parable into a true story?