Homosexuality selected because of societal function

[kmoney]

Sela said this in response to glassjester's question about homosexuality being disordered or not.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-a-Disorder&p=4769563&viewfull=1#post4769563

Problem with arguing from teleology is that assigning telos for things is a rather arbitrary exercise. If the biological function of drinking is quenching the thirst, then drinking whisky, cognac or any other strong spirit is disordered as well, it is counter productive as it is diuretic. Of course, we drink for other reasons than just quenching the thirst, However, that begs the question of whether humans have sex for more than mere reproduction as well.

Secondly, if it serves no biological function, it really is a mystery as to why it is so prevalent across a very wide variety of species of animals, at such a steady rate as well. That would seem to indicate that it has been selected for. It seems to serve some sort of societal function in other species, since it is rather prevalent in animals that are societal.

The thread was closed but I wanted to ask a follow-up question, which I may end up regretting.

Sela, does your second point assume that it's caused by genetics? If so, is that a safe assumption?
To be clear, I am not putting up 'genetics' against 'choice'. I have other biological causes in mind.

 

[MrDante]

Sela said this in response to glassjester's question about homosexuality being disordered or not.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-a-Disorder&p=4769563&viewfull=1#post4769563



The thread was closed but I wanted to ask a follow-up question, which I may end up regretting.

Sela, does your second point assume that it's caused by genetics? If so, is that a safe assumption?
To be clear, I am not putting up 'genetics' against 'choice'. I have other biological causes in mind.

My understanding of the research on the topic says that homosexuality is the result of genetics, epigenetics and their interaction with the pre-natal environment.

 

[Selaphiel]

I doubt there is simple gene for homosexuality. My guess is that there are epigenetic factors in interaction with the pre-natal environment like MrDante already said. There is research that suggests that it is more common in men with older brothers. I have no idea if this is true in other animals as well. If it is, it might be a mechanism (not in the sense of all youngest males are homosexuals, but statistically) that has been preserved due to an evolutionary advantage. But that is fairly speculative. The fact that it is so prevalent in the animal kingdom suggests that populations that have a certain % of homosexual individuals are selected for.

 

[glassjester]

I guess all the guys in ancient Greece had older brothers.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I doubt there is simple gene for homosexuality. My guess is that there are epigenetic factors in interaction with the pre-natal environment like MrDante already said. There is research that suggests that it is more common in men with older brothers. I have no idea if this is true in other animals as well. If it is, it might be a mechanism (not in the sense of all youngest males are homosexuals, but statistically) that has been preserved due to an evolutionary advantage. But that is fairly speculative. The fact that it is so prevalent in the animal kingdom suggests that populations that have a certain % of homosexual individuals are selected for.

Certainly makes more sense than the dumb 'people choose to be gay' garbage...

 

[glassjester]

Certainly makes more sense than the dumb 'people choose to be gay' garbage...

You're right. It's not a choice.

It's a million little choices that contribute to someone's preference of sexual partner.
Just like your preference for music, art, and literature.
You form your preferences over the course of your entire life; and they are influenced by culture, values, and experience.

 

[glassjester]

The thread was closed

Some of the posts in there definitely warranted a bar of soap in the mouth.

Or... keyboard. I guess.

 

[patrick jane]

The fact that it is so prevalent in the animal kingdom suggests that populations that have a certain % of homosexual individuals are selected for.

I disagree about nature - can you cite some example of gay animals? Prevalent is a strong word, as it means predominant

 

[Selaphiel]

I disagree about nature - can you cite some example of gay animals? Prevalent is a strong word, as it means predominant

Prevalent as in widespread across the animal kingdom, not as in dominant within a single species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Just like your preference for music, art, and literature.
You form your preferences over the course of your entire life; and they are influenced by culture, values, and experience.

I sincerely doubt that it is has no biological basis, just considering the amount of abuse many homosexuals have had to suffer and endure. Would seem like a powerful deterrent to move down a path of such choices.

How do you account for it in animals where values and culture (unless you count proto-culture in some higher primates)are not a factor?

The study with the older brothers factor is just a correlation. There are hypothetical mechanisms for it though.

 

[glassjester]

I disagree about nature - can you cite some example of gay animals? Prevalent is a strong word, as it means predominant

Even if true, it's a ridiculous point to make.
"Animals do it, so it must be ok!" :hammer:


Coprophagia is prevalent among animals.

Should we do that, too?

 

[Selaphiel]

Even if true, it's a ridiculous point to make.
"Animals do it, so it must be ok!" :hammer:


Coprophagia is prevalent among animals.

Should we do that, too?

Where have I suggested that it is morally acceptable because it is natural? Please quote me saying that.

The original post was meant to demolish the ridiculous arguments against homosexuality based on the teleology of sex. That argument is nonsense, because if it exists in so many species, it suggests a function and thus is aids the reproductivity of a population.

Then the question remains, what makes it immoral in your eyes? What is the actual problem with homosexual relationships? It seems to me that there are no good reasons except religious prejudice.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You're right. It's not a choice.

It's a million little choices that contribute to someone's preference of sexual partner.
Just like your preference for music, art, and literature.
You form your preferences over the course of your entire life; and they are influenced by culture, values, and experience.

Well no, I knew I saw the opposite sex differently to my own gender as young as five. I didn't understand why completely but now as an adult I can tell I was simply wired as heterosexual. That isn't a preference and homosexual attraction for me is not only completely out of the window but I would posit for anyone else who would identify as heterosexual themselves. Where it comes to music I was born with perfect pitch, obviously not a choice in itself but I was drawn to music that was more 'off the beaten track' as a kid and I didn't then nor 'choose' now to love the music I do. What you seem to be arguing is that people can alter their attractions over a course of time which is a very weak argument. I'm never going to be interested in listening to a 'Take That' boy band album as I find pop music to be insidiously bland and dull for the most part. In much the same way I wouldn't ever buy a poster of such a boy band as I happen to be straight and that ain't gonna change whether I live to 107...

 

[Rusha]

Well no, I knew I saw the opposite sex differently to my own gender as young as five. I didn't understand why completely but now as an adult I can tell I was simply wired as heterosexual. That isn't a preference and homosexual attraction for me is not only completely out of the window but I would posit for anyone else who would identify as heterosexual themselves.

And you would be correct ...

 

[glassjester]

I sincerely doubt that it is has no biological basis, just considering the amount of abuse many homosexuals have had to suffer and endure. Would seem like a powerful deterrent to move down a path of such choices.

They might not have consciously moved down that path.
People are not vigilant enough of how they form themselves (I don't only mean homosexuals, here).

The same goes for any psychological state. People aren't always paying attention to where they're going.
For example, a long series of choices can lead someone further and further into developing an irrevocable personality disorder, right? If they knew that was where they were heading, they would have stopped. But people rarely pay attention to the way seemingly inconsequential daily actions affect them over the span of years.

How do you account for it in animals where values and culture (unless you count proto-culture in some higher primates)are not a factor?

You answered your own question.
Animals have no values. They just respond to their urges.

That's why being a gay chimp ain't no thang.
Just like being an incestuous chimp ain't no thang.

 

[glassjester]

What you seem to be arguing is that people can alter their attractions over a course of time which is a very weak argument. I'm never going to be interested in listening to a 'Take That' boy band album as I find pop music to be insidiously bland and dull for the most part.

You could change your musical tastes, if you willed it.

 

[Rusha]

Even if true, it's a ridiculous point to make.
"Animals do it, so it must be ok!" :hammer:

'Cept ... that hasn't been indicated. In the *animal kindgom*, it comes naturally. It's about a *natural* attraction, nothing more.

 

[Selaphiel]

They might not have consciously moved down that path.
People are not vigilant enough of how they form themselves (I don't only mean homosexuals, here).

The same goes for any psychological state. People aren't always paying attention to where they're going.
For example, a long series of choices can lead someone further and further into developing an irrevocable personality disorder, right? If they knew that was where they were heading, they would have stopped. But people rarely pay attention to the way seemingly inconsequential daily actions affect them over the span of years.

Developing such personality disorders usually take quite some time, and usually have triggers. They also aren't without biological dispositions.
Homosexual attraction emerges as they sexually mature. Not much time for it be the result of many incremental choices.

Also, it is not established that homosexuality is a disorder. Why is it a disorder?

You answered your own question.
Animals have no values. They just respond to their urges.

Why are those urges there? Why are they there in so many different species (we are not just talking about primates or species closely related to them, it ranges from insects to elephants) if they have no value for the perpetuation of the species? The emergence and preservation of such a trait in so many species is highly unlikely if it has no evolutionary function.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You could change your musical tastes, if you willed it.

No, I couldn't. That's like telling me I could choose not to recognize a note on the musical scale even though I have perfect pitch. Whatever music that has ever appealed to me has never been a 'choice' but in general it's something that catches my ear through interesting harmonies/timbres that involves. If you're trying to argue that I could 'will' myself to start liking Beyonce et al then you really are talking out of your hat.

 

[Rusha]

You could change your musical tastes, if you willed it.

Oh, that's interesting. So you can make yourself listen to rap or grunge rock or country music and actually enjoy it ...

I absolutely cannot and am not buying that anyone else can ...

 

[glassjester]

No, I couldn't. That's like telling me I could choose not to recognize a note on the musical scale even though I have perfect pitch. Whatever music that has ever appealed to me has never been a 'choice' but in general it's something that catches my ear through interesting harmonies/timbres that catch my ear. If you're trying to argue that I could 'will' myself to start liking Beyonce et al then you really are talking out of your hat.

Yes. You definitely could choose to like Beyonce.

Sidenote: I like that you have worked your perfect pitch into two posts so far.