Have you learned the shema?

[Jacob]

Its pretty clear Jacob, for anyone with at least high school reading skills. I'd encourage you to read a little more carefully, if I wasn't clear enough. It regards Jesus words in the gospels about being pro-Torah, compared to Paul's anti-Torah stance presented in the gospel he preached. Do you regard Paul as a disciple of Jesus, and a true follower of Torah? - or he is his own brand of disciple or a false apostle?

See here - Jesus words only - this site focuses on keeping to Jesus words only, while recognizing Paul as an imposter apostle, because of his clearly anti-Torah stance and other teachings which contradict what Jesus and the original 12 apostles taught and lived. Now could you attend to the questions asked of you?

I cannot agree to your post. It is my understanding that you have not changed your signature. You need to repent and turn to God.

 

[Jacob]

Your "No" does not negate the fact that passages also have an esoteric and allegorical meaning behind them. As I've shared about the Shema, it can also be understood to be a universal salutation to the fact of the divine Oneness of the Creator, and that all sons of God (Israel) that recognize the divine Creator who is indivisible, have a share in his kingdom and glory. That's one primary significance of the Shema!

No. You are incorrect.

 

[freelight]

Criticism of Paul.......................

Criticism of Paul.......................

Some muddy water here Freelight, Paul wasn't anti Torah except for the letter of it 2Cor 3:6, Clearly you have a Bias against Paul that bubbles to the surface once and while.

Hi Zeke,

My former commentary and inquiries stand to which Jacob is unable to intelligently respond. The differences between the gospel that Jesus taught and the one Paul taught are evident in themselves to which some Christians reconcile or explain in their own ways, while some Jesus followers totally reject Paul more or less as an imposter apostle, a self appointed religious innovator.

Besides the 'Jesus Words Only' site which has many great article-resources for your own study, Craig M Lyons of Bet Emet Ministeries also has some great study material below -


PAUL...THE TRUE FOLLOWER OF THE JEWISH CHRIST...OR...SUBVERTER OF THE FAITH OF THIS JEWISH CHRIST AND FOUNDER OF A NEW RELIGION?

Again, there are those who reject Paul as a true Torah follower (in the traditional sense) and deem him a false apostle since he claimed a revelation and taught a gospel unique to his own making, starting his own religious cult being more of an amalgamation of Judaism, gnosticism, mystery religion allegories, greek metaphysics and his own personal revelations. (remember he never met the man Jesus in the flesh, as far as we know, but encountered only a "voice" and a "light" on the road to Damascus).

It was clear that from early on, the Gentiles that were accepting the Jesus message only had a few rules to abide by as deemed by the Jerusalem Council, so that they were not required to abide by many of the basic Jewish customs or traditions, only a few fundamental rules (there is controversy as to why these converts were not required to convert to Judaism in the traditional fashion). This enabled Paul a greater leeway among his preaching to the Gentiles to incorporate his own gospel, to which he proclaimed an exclusive revelation, which separated himself further from the original apostles of Jesus who stayed true to the foundation of Jewish custom/theology with only some modifications. Eventually Paul's brand of 'redemption theology' and HIS gospel prevailed among Gentile audiences as Jerusalem dissolved and the Temple was destroyed, dispersing or even disintegrating the original nucleus of Jesus followers in Palestine.

Yes, I've for some time had a penchant to look at Paul critically from a biblical context, as far as 'if' or 'how' his teachings relate to Jesus words and the apostles who Jesus appointed in his intimate circle, and there are distinctions which do matter for some for various reasons. There are different viewpoints. As far as accepting the universal allegorical and gnostic insights of Paul's teachings I have never rejected (being 'gnostic' myself in my spiritual inclincations), but those must be interpreted in their own light and 'context', since universal truths and principles couched in various terms and phrases always hold their own, - its just a matter of how we are 'relating' such.

From an esoteric point of view, of course Paul is a primary influence to some gnostics who went to branch out their own teachings with some underlying common themes, further embellished with their own cosmology or mythology, so different schools arose. I don't reject any true concept, theme, law or principle that is in the writings ascribed to Paul (or anyone for that matter), and as you know he has some wonderful allegorical truths he does share, regarding the 'Christ' that indwells man (a life-giving spirit presence), and about our psychic/spiritual transformation in the Christ, since being "in Christ" is the code word of the Spirit of God working with-in the 'inner man' transforming him into the image and likeness of divinity, whereby man puts on 'immortality', hence his gospel articulates the 'story' and 'process' of the mortal becoming immortal. Its all about God in man, and man being transformed in 'God'...(theosis).

As you know, the whole Bible can be translated metaphorically, as beyond any historical accounts which may or may not be proven, the allegorical themes have their place as to whatever meaning or value such texts afford. The sites and commentary I share about Paul being a kind of 'lone-ranger apostle' is only one viewpoint among some Torah-devoted believers who feel Paul's teachings and attitudes are incompatible with a true Jew honoring the law and the prophets staying true to such as the original disciples in Jerusalem led by James the Just, the Lord's brother. These problems exist at various points, while others reconcile or resolve any problems with their own solutions. We as more liberal interpreters of sacred texts and symbols are FREE to explore and translate such writings as we deem them - indicating problems with Paul does NOT mean I discount or disavow any of the writings ascribed to the person we historically call 'Paul' as they relate to universal truth principles or allegorical truths, since things 'spiritual' can only be spiritually discerned. Anyways,....any who have followed my writings over the years recognize this. There is also always more to learn, so we keep our minds open along the way :surf:

 

[freelight]

Oneness at the Heart.......

Oneness at the Heart.......

I cannot agree to your post. It is my understanding that you have not changed your signature. You need to repent and turn to God.

If you'd like to have a discussion, indicate what parts or points you disagree with so an actual 'dialogue' can ensue.

As far as what is in my 'signature',...that can stay or can change at any time, although Knight has allowed me that much or less as far as links go in my signature. My signature has little to do with the SUBJECT we are discussing so bringing that up is a red herring. My signature which has a hindu "om" symbol, and some links to my 'cosmic cafe' thread and other websites, blogs or resource venues are merely an assortment of some things which I've written, have an affiliation or link with on some philosophical level as to present or past study, but they do not necessarily define or represent who I AM, since I only identify with my God-self at a core level, that being 'pure consciousness'. . - all else are explorations of words, thoughts and symbols...that is all. That is all information is. These 'words' have no value or meaning beyond what we give them - that's the wonderful thing about 'creative dialogue'.

Life is the adventure of consciousness, relating itself in various ways thru relationship. That is all life is, or rather the purpose of 'creation'. If you engage that, perhaps a more diverse, interesting and multidimensional perspective would open for you as we discuss religious/spiritual subjects. After all, this 'God' we are discussing is INFINITE. Besides this Infinite ONE, there is infinity itself also to contemplate.

Don't forget, that behind all this.....the Shema resounds as a continuous mantra....signifying the divine unity at the HEART of all. Each and every moment of space-time arises in this UNITY of Life.

 

[freelight]

Amazing!

Amazing!

No. You are incorrect.

Again, this does not address anything in particular, but is a base presumption on your part, with no support or evidence provided. Remember, a 'discussion' or 'dialogue' requires for you to actually engage the subject....actually bringing up what particular points you disagree with and WHY. - then we can continue to 'discuss' or 'debate' those 'points'. Could you contribute that much on your very own thread? Or should you just close the thread? :idunno:

 

[Jacob]

If you'd like to have a discussion, indicate what parts or points you disagree with so an actual 'dialogue' can ensue.

As far as what is in my 'signature',...that can stay or can change at any time, although Knight has allowed me that much or less as far as links go in my signature. My signature has little to do with the SUBJECT we are discussing so bringing that up is a red herring. My signature which has a hindu "om" symbol, and some links to my 'cosmic cafe' thread and other websites, blogs or resource venues are merely an assortment of some things which I've written, have an affiliation or link with on some philosophical level as to present or past study, but they do not necessarily define or represent who I AM, since I only identify with my God-self at a core level, that being 'pure consciousness'. . - all else are explorations of words, thoughts and symbols...that is all. That is all information is. These 'words' have no value or meaning beyond what we give them - that's the wonderful thing about 'creative dialogue'.

Life is the adventure of consciousness, relating itself in various ways thru relationship. That is all life is, or rather the purpose of 'creation'. If you engage that, perhaps a more diverse, interesting and multidimensional perspective would open for you as we discuss religious/spiritual subjects. After all, this 'God' we are discussing is INFINITE. Besides this Infinite ONE, there is infinity itself also to contemplate.

Don't forget, that behind all this.....the Shema resounds as a continuous mantra....signifying the divine unity at the HEART of all. Each and every moment of space-time arises in this UNITY of Life.

You are not following the one true God, as your signature demonstrates.

 

[Jacob]

Again, this does not address anything in particular, but is a base presumption on your part, with no support or evidence provided. Remember, a 'discussion' or 'dialogue' requires for you to actually engage the subject....actually bringing up what particular points you disagree with and WHY. - then we can continue to 'discuss' or 'debate' those 'points'. Could you contribute that much on your very own thread? Or should you just close the thread? :idunno:

If you do not worship the one true God the shema is not for you.

 

[freelight]

Please articulate your belief or viewpoint......

Please articulate your belief or viewpoint......

If you do not worship the one true God the shema is not for you.

I've explained my understanding of the Shema, its universal significance and meaning which is not something you or your preferred religious cult has a monopoly on. 'God' the Creator is the Creative Intelligence permeating all creation, upholding all. This living Presence of Spirit-energy is ONE (echad). The Lord's name is also 'echad', in identity and nature. All diversity springs from within an original and all-encompassing unity.

Also you still haven't answered my direct question if you believe Paul is a true apostle of the Lord Jesus, since his teachings are interpreted to be saying one is not required to obey the Torah, and just have faith in a risen cosmic Christ-figure. He teaches all you need is faith in the resurrection of this Christ-figure, and the 'atonement' or 'redemption' that is provided for in his death on the cross. But it seems you believe the Torah is essential to obey for salvation, is this correct? Could you answer my question and clarify your position?

 

[freelight]

You are not following the one true God, as your signature demonstrates.

As shared previously, my 'signature' has nothing or little to do with the present discussion of the subject at hand. As far as following the "one true God", that's a matter of definition and description. My general platform and base for recognizing the Oneness of Spirit, is central to my understanding of the Shema, which is a proclamation for the people of God, no matter their religious or cultural affiliations or denomination, since forms and figures are many, while the spirit-essence behind all these forms and figures is ONE.

 

[Zeke]

Hi Zeke,

My former commentary and inquiries stand to which Jacob is unable to intelligently respond. The differences between the gospel that Jesus taught and the one Paul taught are evident in themselves to which some Christians reconcile or explain in their own ways, while some Jesus followers totally reject Paul more or less as an imposter apostle, a self appointed religious innovator.

Besides the 'Jesus Words Only' site which has many great article-resources for your own study, Craig M Lyons of Bet Emet Ministeries also has some great study material below -


PAUL...THE TRUE FOLLOWER OF THE JEWISH CHRIST...OR...SUBVERTER OF THE FAITH OF THIS JEWISH CHRIST AND FOUNDER OF A NEW RELIGION?

Again, there are those who reject Paul as a true Torah follower (in the traditional sense) and deem him a false apostle since he claimed a revelation and taught a gospel unique to his own making, starting his own religious cult being more of an amalgamation of Judaism, gnosticism, mystery religion allegories, greek metaphysics and his own personal revelations. (remember he never met the man Jesus in the flesh, as far as we know, but encountered only a "voice" and a "light" on the road to Damascus).

It was clear that from early on, the Gentiles that were accepting the Jesus message only had a few rules to abide by as deemed by the Jerusalem Council, so that they were not required to abide by many of the basic Jewish customs or traditions, only a few fundamental rules (there is controversy as to why these converts were not required to convert to Judaism in the traditional fashion). This enabled Paul a greater leeway among his preaching to the Gentiles to incorporate his own gospel, to which he proclaimed an exclusive revelation, which separated himself further from the original apostles of Jesus who stayed true to the foundation of Jewish custom/theology with only some modifications. Eventually Paul's brand of 'redemption theology' and HIS gospel prevailed among Gentile audiences as Jerusalem dissolved and the Temple was destroyed, dispersing or even disintegrating the original nucleus of Jesus followers in Palestine.

Yes, I've for some time had a penchant to look at Paul critically from a biblical context, as far as 'if' or 'how' his teachings relate to Jesus words and the apostles who Jesus appointed in his intimate circle, and there are distinctions which do matter for some for various reasons. There are different viewpoints. As far as accepting the universal allegorical and gnostic insights of Paul's teachings I have never rejected (being 'gnostic' myself in my spiritual inclincations), but those must be interpreted in their own light and 'context', since universal truths and principles couched in various terms and phrases always hold their own, - its just a matter of how we are 'relating' such.

From an esoteric point of view, of course Paul is a primary influence to some gnostics who went to branch out their own teachings with some underlying common themes, further embellished with their own cosmology or mythology, so different schools arose. I don't reject any true concept, theme, law or principle that is in the writings ascribed to Paul (or anyone for that matter), and as you know he has some wonderful allegorical truths he does share, regarding the 'Christ' that indwells man (a life-giving spirit presence), and about our psychic/spiritual transformation in the Christ, since being "in Christ" is the code word of the Spirit of God working with-in the 'inner man' transforming him into the image and likeness of divinity, whereby man puts on 'immortality', hence his gospel articulates the 'story' and 'process' of the mortal becoming immortal. Its all about God in man, and man being transformed in 'God'...(theosis).

As you know, the whole Bible can be translated metaphorically, as beyond any historical accounts which may or may not be proven, the allegorical themes have their place as to whatever meaning or value such texts afford. The sites and commentary I share about Paul being a kind of 'lone-ranger apostle' is only one viewpoint among some Torah-devoted believers who feel Paul's teachings and attitudes are incompatible with a true Jew honoring the law and the prophets staying true to such as the original disciples in Jerusalem led by James the Just, the Lord's brother. These problems exist at various points, while others reconcile or resolve any problems with their own solutions. We as more liberal interpreters of sacred texts and symbols are FREE to explore and translate such writings as we deem them - indicating problems with Paul does NOT mean I discount or disavow any of the writings ascribed to the person we historically call 'Paul' as they relate to universal truth principles or allegorical truths, since things 'spiritual' can only be spiritually discerned. Anyways,....any who have followed my writings over the years recognize this. There is also always more to learn, so we keep our minds open along the way :surf:

I just don't see that much difference, the kingdom/temple within is the main point of both, but anyway its a mute point in the long run just interjected my bias, back to threads topic.

 

[freelight]

I just don't see that much difference, the kingdom/temple within is the main point of both, but anyway its a mute point in the long run just interjected my bias, back to threads topic.

I hear ya,.....there is only One 'God', with many different expressions, forms and personalities who are but its offsprings. As we both hold, there is One Universal MIND or Consciousness wherein this whole play of creation takes place, as there is no 'other' Consciousness existing, but this ONE. No matter the multiplicity of features or dimensions arising in the space-time manifold....its still all taking place within the substratum of consciousness,...so this is All There IS. Hence the import and significance of the Shema!

"Hear O people or sons of God, the Lord our Elohim, the Lord is one!"...and his name is one! 'Name' denotes identity, nature, being. We could explore the Hebrew more, and draw more allusions to the phrase as it relates, the metaphysics involved. This is what its all about, exploring the wonders of 'God', his name, qualities and attributes, since all these are further reflected in his image and resemblences which mirror our own soul, and the very cosmos!

N-joy!

 

[patrick jane]

I've explained my understanding of the Shema, its universal significance and meaning which is not something you or your preferred religious cult has a monopoly on. 'God' the Creator is the Creative Intelligence permeating all creation, upholding all. This living Presence of Spirit-energy is ONE (echad). The Lord's name is also 'echad', in identity and nature. All diversity springs from within an original and all-encompassing unity.

Also you still haven't answered my direct question if you believe Paul is a true apostle of the Lord Jesus, since his teachings are interpreted to be saying one is not required to obey the Torah, and just have faith in a risen cosmic Christ-figure. He teaches all you need is faith in the resurrection of this Christ-figure, and the 'atonement' or 'redemption' that is provided for in his death on the cross. But it seems you believe the Torah is essential to obey for salvation, is this correct? Could you answer my question and clarify your position?

He can't seem to answer you free !!

 

[freelight]

Response-ability increases with imagination........

Response-ability increases with imagination........

He can't seem to answer you free !!

And I've been reasonable and very clear in my contributions to the dialogue, if you can call it a 'dialogue' :think:

But back to the Shema,....its an awesome exhortation,...but I apply it universally,...as a salutation to Oneness, its truth which points to a singular source, matrix and continuum. Oneness is not only at the heart of the Creator, but the center of all Creation, since you cannot separate Creation from its Creator, or its creative source (no matter how much you divide or dimensionalize space,...the infinite source of that space remains an incorporeal whole, a unity without dimensions or definition. - it just so happens that definitions and dimensions arise OUT FROM this vast open spaciousness and come into existence as a continuum of creation. That is all that is going on,.... dimensions being formed or brought into being out from the ground of that which is prior to and beyond dimension or definition.

Jews, nor Christians, nor any other religious denomination have a monopoly on the Infinite. The corporate Over-soul, the Infinite Spirit itself, or whom we call The Universal Father...is the First Source and Center of all. This Deity is also "Our Mother"....since she is the Matrix who gives birth to all worlds and sentient beings. You cannot honor your parents on earth, without honoring your divine Parent above, who is a 'Father-Mother' to all creation.

The Shema itself is a call to 'hear', 'listen', 'attend to'. Awaken your hearing to the voice of Spirit, - to what the Spirit is saying to the community. Its a summons of recognition, of God's nature and identity. What could be more fundamental or important than that? Hence its importance within Judaism.

~*~*~

'God' is ONE.

'God' is indivisible.

'God' is singular in his personality, but transcends personality as well, but inherently one in being, person and nature, albeit the source of all individual expressions or units of sentient personality in the cosmos. There is ONLY God! (space-energy-consciousness) - and the offspring of 'God'. There is only 'God' and the expressions of 'God', or the obscurations or distortions of 'God' which appear in the duality of Creation...as 'light' and 'darkness'; 'good' and 'evil'; 'reality' and 'illusion'. All multiple extensions of space-energy-time-matter....arise from within an infinite unity which allows for such diversification to appear.

That one has no desire to explore these themes and concepts is not my responsibility, in as much as they can at least make an effort to engage the conversation creatively, to make use of the space here. So goes the opportunity. With all potentials and possibilities of language at our disposal, you'd think we have exhaustless space in which to venture and explore. Since we do have some responsibility as sentient beings, why not use our co-creative powers wisely to engage dialogue?

 

[Jacob]

I've explained my understanding of the Shema, its universal significance and meaning which is not something you or your preferred religious cult has a monopoly on. 'God' the Creator is the Creative Intelligence permeating all creation, upholding all. This living Presence of Spirit-energy is ONE (echad). The Lord's name is also 'echad', in identity and nature. All diversity springs from within an original and all-encompassing unity.

Also you still haven't answered my direct question if you believe Paul is a true apostle of the Lord Jesus, since his teachings are interpreted to be saying one is not required to obey the Torah, and just have faith in a risen cosmic Christ-figure. He teaches all you need is faith in the resurrection of this Christ-figure, and the 'atonement' or 'redemption' that is provided for in his death on the cross. But it seems you believe the Torah is essential to obey for salvation, is this correct? Could you answer my question and clarify your position?

No freelight. You do not understand.

You ought to read the Torah and turn to the one and only true God.

I can private message you about your concerns if you would like.

Do you know that the T in TaNaKh is for Torah?

 

[Jacob]

As shared previously, my 'signature' has nothing or little to do with the present discussion of the subject at hand. As far as following the "one true God", that's a matter of definition and description. My general platform and base for recognizing the Oneness of Spirit, is central to my understanding of the Shema, which is a proclamation for the people of God, no matter their religious or cultural affiliations or denomination, since forms and figures are many, while the spirit-essence behind all these forms and figures is ONE.

No

 

[Jacob]

The T in TaNaKh is for Torah.

 

[TweetyBird]

The T in TaNaKh is for Torah.[/URL]

Why is this important? More of your "Torah" rhetoric? Why don't you ever talk about Jesus Christ? We are of His Household, not of Moses or his law.

 

[Jacob]

Why is this important? More of your "Torah" rhetoric? Why don't you ever talk about Jesus Christ? We are of His Household, not of Moses or his law.

Do you disagree with my post?

 

[TweetyBird]

Do you disagree with my post?

What post? All I see is "no".

 

[Jacob]

What post? All I see is "no".

In this thread, post 356. I don't know how to verify what you are seeing. Sorry.

Shalom.