Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Rosenritter]

The Elect can't fall away.

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Please prove this by scripture. And while you are at it define what you mean by "Elect" by scripture, if possible, if not possible, as you mean it.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That passage implies that it may be possible for the elect to be deceived. Granted it doesn't say one way or the other exactly. And I just went through all references to "elect" without finding anything to prove your claim. If you're citing Calvinism as proof instead of scripture, you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[God's Truth]

The Elect can't fall away.

Their sins were laid on their Surety Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus Is. 53:6.

Phil. 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

This is also the Sanctifying Work of the Holy Spirit.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

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The elect can fall away that is why they are warned.


People can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38; to hold on and stand firm, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.

 

[TulipBee]

Now as to this guy calling my post false, I have been a preacher for 25 years, the only kind of people I meet who always say everyone's thoughts and understandings are wrong except theirs is the kind of people you have to be weary of.


{{{ We were all elected via the blood of Christ, some just choose to not accept this calling. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, thus we were all predestined by God to be saved through Jesus' blood. It is really simple logic, God can not lie, and if He desires that all men would not perish, but have everlasting life, then Calvinism is just a misunderstanding of the word. Which is not a rare case in Christendom.}}}

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( So what is God's Will ? )

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We are predestined unto Christ Jesus' salvation, that is Gods will, that all should choose Jesus' Blood.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So Jesus was a Sacrifice for us before the Universe was even created, because God knows the beginning and the ending and everything in between.

25 years of lies. You gotta LOT of repenting to do if you're able. Probably not able or least not yet, maybe never.

 

[Rosenritter]

Not my invention . . .

Faith is belief. There are all kinds of belief, but only one faith that saves, and that is faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I do not know what you mean by this term.

I know you didn't personally invent the term, you're repeating what other people invented. I've heard the term before. It's not a scriptural term, it's an invented term. That's my point. If it has validity it must be shown from scripture, not taken for granted. But by the same measure I am free to invent terms if I can establish that it is a reasonable interpretation.

Initial faith? here, I'll demonstrate.

Matthew 13:31-32 KJV
(31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
(32) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

The grain of mustard seed is the initial faith that a man puts forth. It is not "saving faith" but it is responded to and blossoms into saving faith.

Luke 17:5-6 KJV
(5) And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
(6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

That grain of mustard seed is initial faith. The faith that must be increased. The apostles didn't say they had no faith, but that they needed more faith.

Mark 9:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Did the father of the child have "saving faith" or did he ask for help towards that saving faith? In this case the response to his faith was evidenced by Jesus's willingness to heal his child.

My point here is that as faith is used in scripture, it's not a binary on / off thing. God requires that we be willing to set aside what we have and be willing to lay down our own life. That is evidence of faith. We are required to put forth something first. God has already demonstrated his intentions through the cross. If we respond to that, if we put forth faith, God can increase our faith. Our faith can be helped by the Holy Spirit to become that "saving faith" you mentioned.

This works in application. It does not require Calvinism. It also agrees with scripture, when Jesus says that people can believe, and then fall away.

 

[TulipBee]

Since when did "Total Depravity" become an unquestionable tenet of the gospel, an accepted truth by which all scripture must be bent around?

Plenty of info on that via Google and the Bible.

 

[Nanja]

Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Nanja, what Bible are you using that has "belief" as a fruit of the spirit? Even if you were to point to the word "faith" that does not mean that one requires the Holy Spirit to first believe.

Mark 9:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Did the father require the Holy Spirit to believe, and to pray "help thou mine unbelief?" If you say yes, then how come he had unbelief?

Also, Acts 11:21 does not say that God (the Holy Spirit) made the people believe. It says the hand of the Lord was with them. And even then, how many of those who believed actually stayed? Jesus himself told parables that said that not all that believe will stay.

Luke 8:11-14 KJV
(11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
(12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.


Since you just equated "believed" with "requires the predestined Holy spirit first" with "eternally saved" I think that Jesus just destroyed Calvinism in the gospel of Luke with that parable. The good news is that the true and honest gospel is much much better than that allowed by Calvinism.

Faith / Belief are the same thing.

No one can hear and Believe the Word of God unless they are first quickened, Born of God.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


Now the ones in Luke 8:13 heard only physically, had no root.

But the ones who received the Word into the good ground Mat. 13:23, a Saved Heart Ezek. 36:26, undestood it and brought forth Fruit.

~~~~

 

[God's Truth]

Faith / Belief are the same thing.

That is true.

No one can hear and Believe the Word of God unless they are first quickened, Born of God.

That is not true.

When one is quickened one is saved. God does NOT save those who do not believe.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You are not taking into consideration that when Jesus walked the earth, only Jews who already had faith could come to Jesus to be saved.

Now the ones in Luke 8:13 heard only physically, had no root.

But the ones who received the Word into the good ground Mat. 13:23, a Saved Heart Ezek. 36:26, undestood it and brought forth Fruit.

~~~~

I love that parable. That parable proves that people hear the truth and if they would only have heeded to God's Word they would stay saved.

 

[Nanja]

Please prove this by scripture. And while you are at it define what you mean by "Elect" by scripture, if possible, if not possible, as you mean it.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That passage implies that it may be possible for the elect to be deceived. Granted it doesn't say one way or the other exactly. And I just went through all references to "elect" without finding anything to prove your claim. If you're citing Calvinism as proof instead of scripture, you're putting the cart before the horse.

Already did.

The Elect can't fall away.

Their sins were laid on their Surety Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus Is. 53:6.

Phil. 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

This is also the Sanctifying Work of the Holy Spirit.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

~~~~

A true Born Again Believer cannot fall away from the Truth, they have been given an unction or an anointing of the Spirit of God

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is permanently sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13.

~~~~

 

[beloved57]

And those that disgrace the blood of Christ shall be destroyed by fire. Is that not appropriate?

Yeah thats appropriate. And those that teach sinners Christ shed His Blood for do just that !

 

[beloved57]

Please prove this by scripture. And while you are at it define what you mean by "Elect" by scripture, if possible, if not possible, as you mean it.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That passage implies that it may be possible for the elect to be deceived. Granted it doesn't say one way or the other exactly. And I just went through all references to "elect" without finding anything to prove your claim. If you're citing Calvinism as proof instead of scripture, you're putting the cart before the horse.

That scripture implies that the Elect cannot be deceived and fall away. You must cant read. Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That clearly implies its not possible to deceive the very elect !

 

[Rosenritter]

Plenty of info on that via Google and the Bible.

Then where is "Total Depravity" defined in the Bible? It's a tenet of Calvinism, not the Bible. You are attempting to prove Calvinism using a concept that first assumes acceptance of Calvinism. That's the hallmark of circular logic.

 

[beloved57]

Already did.




A true Born Again Believer cannot fall away from the Truth, they have been given an unction or an anointing of the Spirit of God

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is permanently sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13.

~~~~

Amen Sister !

 

[Rosenritter]

Faith / Belief are the same thing.

No one can hear and Believe the Word of God unless they are first quickened, Born of God.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


Now the ones in Luke 8:13 heard only physically, had no root.

But the ones who received the Word into the good ground Mat. 13:23, a Saved Heart Ezek. 36:26, undestood it and brought forth Fruit.

~~~~

Actually, it says they received the word with joy. That's more than simply "hearing physically." It also says that they "for a while believed." Someone here was saying that one could not believe unless the Holy Spirit gifted that belief. Was that you?

 

[Crucible]

Already did.




A true Born Again Believer cannot fall away from the Truth, they have been given an unction or an anointing of the Spirit of God

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is permanently sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13.

~~~~

TULIP
Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Rosenritter]

Already did.




A true Born Again Believer cannot fall away from the Truth, they have been given an unction or an anointing of the Spirit of God

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

The Truth of the Gospel is permanently sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit Eph. 1:13.

~~~~

When you ask asked for scriptural proof, saying "Already Did" is not providing such proof.

Citing inapplicable passages does not prove your point either. How does 1 John 2:20-21 prove that a believer cannot fall away? And how does Ephesians 1:13 prove that one can not fall away? You're overlaying assumptions and running away with them.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yeah thats appropriate. And those that teach sinners Christ shed His Blood for do just that !

Did you mean to say that Teachers who Teach sinners, the sinners that Christ shed his blood for, that these Teachers destroy the wicked who reject Christ's sacrifice with Fire?

Grammar, please! It's difficult to discern your meaning.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yeah thats appropriate. And those that teach sinners Christ shed His Blood for do just that !

Given that we just defined that "disgracing the blood of Christ" is the sin of rejecting his offered forgiveness and mercy, it seems that you have conceded your position. Welcome to the gospel.

 

[Nang]

I know you didn't personally invent the term, you're repeating what other people invented. I've heard the term before. It's not a scriptural term, it's an invented term.

It is a descriptive term. A qualifier.

Initial faith? here, I'll demonstrate.

Matthew 13:31-32 KJV
(31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
(32) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

The grain of mustard seed is the initial faith that a man puts forth. It is not "saving faith" but it is responded to and blossoms into saving faith.


Luke 17:5-6 KJV
(5) And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
(6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

I would say that Matthew 13:31-32 and Luke 17:5-6 demonstrate the truth of Romans 1:17. God gifts us with faith that justifies us with God; the Holy Spirit nurtures that faith, and faith grows upon faith unto ultimate salvation.

Mark 9:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Did the father of the child have "saving faith" or did he ask for help towards that saving faith?

By denying the term "saving faith" you infer any and all faith emanates from the human heart, but not so. Faith is not inherent to fallen sinners. Sinners are at enmity with God and will not believe.

Faith to believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel comes from God. It is a gift of His grace.

My point here is that as faith is used in scripture, it's not a binary on / off thing.

Agreed. That is why I said saving faith is permanent. It is immutable, because it is sourced from Immutable God.

God requires that we be willing to set aside what we have and be willing to lay down our own life. That is evidence of faith.

I do not see any such teachings in the Scripture. The only mention of laying down a life for the brethren, refers to Christ's sacrifice. Sinners corrupted hearts, minds, and wills have nothing to give to help others.

We are required to put forth something first.

That is a legal demand, but no sinner is ever saved by keeping the Law.

God has already demonstrated his intentions through the cross. If we respond to that, if we put forth faith, God can increase our faith. Our faith can be helped by the Holy Spirit to become that "saving faith" you mentioned.

It is not "if we respond." It is sure we will respond to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and His resurrection power. A dead man, raised to new life by God, will surely live.

This works in application. It does not require Calvinism. It also agrees with scripture, when Jesus says that people can believe, and then fall away.

I disagree. Faith given from God, by God, and nurtured by His Spirit, is immutable and eternal as He is Immutable and Eternal.

. . . You do not know a poster named "Evoken" do you? . . .

 

[TulipBee]

Then where is "Total Depravity" defined in the Bible? It's a tenet of Calvinism, not the Bible. You are attempting to prove Calvinism using a concept that first assumes acceptance of Calvinism. That's the hallmark of circular logic.

You've already been served and explained. Only some will understand.

 

[popsthebuilder]

They sin, but God doesn't count their sins against them, and before Him they have no sin. That is not true of all.

Nonsense.

God will judge the faithful and the ignorant by their works. How much worse is that knowing sin than that sin done in ignorance?

How many times was the Christ crucified for the sins of all? To knowingly continue in sin is to dishonor the work of the Christ and deny Him.
So many conveniently leave out repentance from the gospel. It is a shame.

May GOD guide us all by His will for our sake through Christ.

Peace

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