The Holy Spirit draws ALL of humanity to the Grace of God. Our free will is what makes us a "Free-Agent." God didn't create His beings as robot/puppets. He wants us to come to Him by our own choice.
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Hardly.
The visible churches are full of hypocrites, who sit and hear the gospel preached, but who never bear the fruit of the Spirit, because they were never regenerated to new spiritual life. The Holy Spirit does not indwell them, and their dead hearts remain hard as stone in unbelief.
Regeneration precedes saving faith . . .
Calvinists would have us believe that God chose who He desired to "Save" before the foundation of the world and the rest were chosen for eternal damnation. Calvinism is not only a "Major Cult" it is a "Counterfeit created by Satan."
Calvinists, such as Nang, believe that one must first be "Regenerated" then, receive "Saving Faith." That's putting the proverbial "Horse before the Cart."
beloved57
Well-known member
You made quite a few false statements!
Rosenritter
New member
Actually, there ARE some "IF"s about it.
Hebrews 6:4-8 KJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
(8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
That word that is highlighted red and underlined is "IF."
Rosenritter
New member
Since when did "Total Depravity" become an unquestionable tenet of the gospel, an accepted truth by which all scripture must be bent around?
It appears as if "Most" Calvinists are fairly intelligent, studious, arrogant, and detail oriented. These types of people are drawn to Calvinism. John Calvin was known as "The Pope of Geneva." He came out of Catholicism, however, he brought a truckload of Catholic beliefs with him. Including water baptizing babies, etc. He was a vicious, murderous, sadistic, and tyrannical man according to history. He was culpable for the deaths of over fifty human beings during his "Reign of Terror."
It's been said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic Church, but, you can't take the Catholic Church out of Calvin."
It's been said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic Church, but, you can't take the Catholic Church out of Calvin."
Nanja's fellow Hyper-Calvinist is, none other than B57.
Rosenritter
New member
Calvinists don't really feel better knowing God is boss. If they truly let God be boss, they wouldn't resent God being willing to extend mercy to all. I suspect that Calvinists feel better thinking that they are elite, and that they do not have responsibility.
Matthew 20:10-15 KJV
(10) But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
(11) And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
(12) Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
(13) But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
(14) Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
(15) Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
It somehow disturbs Calvinist thought that he might be more good, more loving, more merciful. Or that he might require something of whom he has chosen, that there might be expectations, and conditions, and penalties if one takes their calling lightly. See also Matthew 18:32-35, also Matthew 25:14-30.
Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 25:24-30 KJV
(24) Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
(25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
(26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
(27) Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
(28) Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
God has expectations for those whom he gives ability, and upon those whom he has chosen and given talents, ability, or forgiveness, that is still conditional. To deny that is to deny Jesus, and the gospel, but it will allow you to remain Calvinist.
Rosenritter
New member
And those that disgrace the blood of Christ shall be destroyed by fire. Is that not appropriate?
Rosenritter
New member
I am a professed Christian. But AMR (Ask Mr. Religion) said I am reprobate and irrevocably slated for eternal damnation. You therefore agree that AMR is a hypocrite and a liar? After all, even by his beliefs, I could be one of the predestined elect and he or I would have no way of knowing.
Rosenritter
New member
Originally Posted by Rondonmonson
We were all elected via the blood of Christ, some just choose to not accept this calling. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, thus we were all predestined by God to be saved through Jesus' blood. It is really simple logic, God can not lie, and if He desires that all men would not perish, but have everlasting life, then Calvinism is just a misunderstanding of the word. Which is not a rare case in Christendom.
You don't believe Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world?
Revelation 13:8 KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Your "False statements not found in scripture" claim doesn't carry a lot of weight. It's one thing if you choose not to believe the scripture, but don't claim that it's not found in scripture.
Rosenritter
New member
You don't even have the sense to be shameful at how you wrest the scripture to your own destruction. So James, in a letter he wrote specifically addressing the twelve tribes of Israel, when he says that if you bridle not your tongue your religion is in vain, that only applies to "Jews?"
So you, claiming to be a Gentile, believe that you have no obligation to bridle your tongue, and that your religion is pure and spotless when you deceive your own heart?
And even accepting your insane interpretation, notice James wrote to the twelve tribes of Israel. Judah, Levi, and Benjamin make up only three. You could easily be from Gad, or Reuben, or Simeon and you wouldn't know because you haven't traced your lineage. The other tribes were scattered abroad and could be anywhere.
I know enough to "rightly divide" your words away from scripture, judging your sayings to be false and insane.
Rosenritter
New member
Beloved at least is exercising some proper responses. When he doesn't agree with a statement, he will say "stop" and "I disagree with that statement right there" and "let's go back and discuss that before going forward." It's a credit, good behavior, something that you unfortunately don't see every day. And Hyper-Calvinism is the logical end of Calvinism. At least Beloved is being consistent. If there's inherent contradiction in Beloved's consistently-held beliefs, perhaps he (she?) may be able to adjust when (if?) that becomes apparent.
You are what I might term a hyper-Dispensationist. When someone says that BECAUSE James says "your religion is vain if you bridle not your tongue, if you do not show love" and decides that it was 1) only written to Jews and 2) they are not a Jew, therefore 3) they may act in a matter that shows no love and they are immune that goes beyond being consistent, that's just logically defunct. That's not proper math. And reasons like that are why I've wanted nothing to do with anything that calls itself "Dispensationist." Because it bears bad fruit.
Seems as if you have some deep rooted "Anger Issues." Perhaps you should take some "Self-Control" classes to help resolve your PROBLEM?
Like I suggested: Take some self-control classes. You sound a bit UNHINGED.
Rosenritter
New member
I noticed you invented a new term "saving faith." That means you acknowledge other types of faith. Initial faith, for example. One is not saved by their own faith, they are saved by the grace of God which he extends to those that place their faith in him. Faith is then helped. If you want to call the full-fledged development of that initial faith as "saving faith" then perhaps I might agree.
But you're already quoting Calvinist terms and dogma that aren't spoken of in scripture. So what's the point in continuing? Go back to scripture.
Nanja
Well-known member
The Elect can't fall away.
Their sins were laid on their Surety Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus Is. 53:6.
Phil. 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
This is also the Sanctifying Work of the Holy Spirit.
2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
~~~~
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Not my invention . . .
Types?
Faith is belief. There are all kinds of belief, but only one faith that saves, and that is faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
I do not know what you mean by this term.
The grace of God regenerates (changes the heart of a sinner) in order that one can believe the truths of God and repent from sin. Without this miracle performed, no sinner can willfully believe in God or turn away from their sinfulness. The faith implanted in the new, regenerated heart actually justifies the soul; thus the term "saving faith."
The faith founded upon Christ's righteousness builds upon itself (Romans 1:17), through the guidance and instruction of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 16:13) It is a permanent and "saving faith". This is the process of sanctification.
Both God's works of Justification and Sanctification work to our ultimate salvation, and faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22) who is the guarantee of the believer's inheritance of everlasting life. (Ephesians 1:13-14; II Corinthians 1:22, 5:5)