Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[beloved57]

Would you like to retract your statement that "God exercised his fierce wrath" on Jesus?

Ok, I will retract it, for its not necessary to say that to make my point, which is, those who teach that Christ died for someone, and they still go to hell, makes God Unjust ! Now would you like to discuss that ? BTW, you will be held to the same standard when you make a comment, it must be found stated verbatim in the scripture, or you become a hypocrite !

 

[God's Truth]

GM, you get to gain from all the books and the letters in the New Testament, even the ones from the apostles who spoke mainly to the Jews...you get to do that because there is neither Jew or Gentile now.

Just think, the King James Version that only says 'he' all the time, it is for women too.

 

[Rosenritter]

Ok, I will retract it, for its not necessary to say that to make my point, which is, those who teach that Christ died for someone, and they still go to hell, makes God Unjust ! Now would you like to discuss that ? BTW, you will be held to the same standard when you make a comment, it must be found stated verbatim in the scripture, or you become a hypocrite !

I appreciate that you were willing to make the retraction. So let's discuss your question. I'd be open to that. You suggest that it would be "unjust" if someone who was guilty of death was offered grace and rejected it. I don't think "unjust" is the right word. Just implies "justice" which means according to the law. Our law systems allow for forgiveness for a transgression to be extended by the injured party.

For example, have you read the book or seen the movie "Les Miserables?" When Jean stole the silver, justice required that he be arrested and jailed. The priest chose to forgive Jean by refusing to press charges. He even gave Jean additional silver candlesticks to substantiate the claim that the silver was a gift. In this sense the priests's mercy is analogous to Christ's mercy. While Jean was still a sinner, the priest suffered harm yet he forgave him.

If Jean had refused the offer of mercy, lashed out and attacked the police still, that would not be "unjust." That would be stupid, stubborn, a tragedy. But stupid, stubborn, and tragic on behalf of the sinner. Not unjust on behalf of the one that extended grace and forgiveness.

If someone transgressed against you, they lied about you to others, or stole from you, and you forgave them, and they rejected that forgiveness, would that make you "unjust?" That's what your logic / definition would require. That's why I say that's not the right word you are using.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We can see why GM avoids the book of James--

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.


LA

Stay off of that LA Freeway, it's bumper to bumper with confusion and false doctrine.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Interesting observation.

So why is James in the New Testament at all?

Ask God.

 

[marhig]

You have misinterpreted the scripture. It says right at the beginning of verse 4 that it is IMPOSSIBLE. That means that it can never happen.

Ah come on Robert, if that isn't a twist of scripture I don't know what is, it doesn't mean that at all!

Here's that part of the scripture again

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

The word to look at here is IF highlighted above. Clearly meaning once they have been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and partaken in the holy ghost. IF they shall fall away, to renew them again unto to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Impossible here means, it is impossible for them to renew them again unto repentance. That's quite clear.

Once we know God have have been enlightened. IF we turn away again we crucify Christ afresh and put him to an open shame. And we are rejected. We can't live our lives in the flesh and expect God to be ok with that when he tells us right through the Bible that we are to turn from sin, and our fleshy lusts and the world!

God is a loving God, and he loves all of us. And he will keep us secure if we obey him and do his will, but once we give in to our lusts and turn back and start living our lives in the flesh again and start putting this world first, God will eventually reject us. We can't live our lives thinking were going to heaven regardless of how we live. That's not the truth, we can be swelling speakers with our mouths but far from God in our hearts we should love him from our heart, not just with our mouths, and if we do this, we will do Gods will, deny ourselves and turn from sin. If we're not willing to bear our cross, were not worthy of Christ. Jesus came as a perfect example for us to follow. And to follow that example we are love God with all our heart and our neighbour as ourselves, always pray, have a forgiving heart, live right and turn from sin and this world, and when we do that, Christ through the spirit will strengthen us to overcome, IF we truly love God and we're obeying him.

Wilful sin brings separation, carry on and it brings death.

Luke 9

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Understood that you will continue to act like a pompous self-important jester, and feel no shame in it.

If ya can't take the heat, pack your bags and get outta Dodge.

 

[marhig]

Who says being reconciled to God doesn't mean being eternally saved ? Show me the scripture that says that!

Romans 5

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It doesn't say we are saved by reconciliation, but that we are saved by his life! And it even says much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by his life.

Where is the verse that says we are eternally saved by being reconciled God?

 

[marhig]

Them Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, wilfully sinning, that is why they were enemies. But they were still saved, reconciled to God.

They are saved by the life of Christ. As it says in Romans 5

They were reconciled when they were enemies, meaning they heard the word of God when they were still living in the flesh and listened and turned back to God. But they weren't saved by that reconciliation, they are saved by the life of Christ.

Once we belong to Christ we turn from sin.

Don't you agree with that?

 

[beloved57]

ross

You suggest that it would be "unjust" if someone who was guilty of death was offered grace and rejected it.

No, stop right there, thats not what I stated or suggested, now if you arte going to discuss what I stated, then do that ! Review my statement with me, and we will go from there !

 

[beloved57]

marhig

They are saved by the life of Christ. As it says in Romans 5

Yes it says that. However according to Rom 5:10 who does it say that of ?

 

[beloved57]

marhig

They were reconciled when they were enemies, meaning they heard the word of God when they were still living in the flesh and listened and turned back to God.

Thats not what it says ! You added comments no where found in the verse, that bearing false witness. Paul wrote that they were [past tense] reconciled to God while being enemies [present tense] BY THE DEATH OF GODS SON ! Read it Rom 5:10

¹⁰ For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

But they weren't saved by that reconciliation,

The verse doesnt say that they werent saved by that reconciliation !

they are saved by the life of Christ.

Yes it says that. But who is it talking about ? And how are they saved ? Is it by something they did according to that verse ? Yes or No ?

 

[marhig]

marhig




Thats not what it says ! You added comments no where found in the verse, that bearing false witness. Paul wrote that they were [past tense] reconciled to God while being enemies [present tense] BY THE DEATH OF GODS SON ! Read it Rom 5:10

¹⁰ For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!


The verse doesnt say that they werent saved by that reconciliation !



Yes it says that. But who is it talking about ? And how are they saved ? Is it by something they did according to that verse ? Yes or No ?

What? Plain and simply put, we're not saved by the reconciliation, were saved by the life of Christ. It's written plain and clear.

Reconcile means to bring us back to God, it doesn't mean to eternally save us!

We are saved by believing, having faith, following Jesus and having the life of Christ within though the indwelling holy spirit. By the grace of God.

 

[marhig]

marhig




Thats not what it says ! You added comments no where found in the verse, that bearing false witness. Paul wrote that they were [past tense] reconciled to God while being enemies [present tense] BY THE DEATH OF GODS SON ! Read it Rom 5:10

I didn't say that it was in that verse, but it is here!

2 Corinthians 5

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also Paul knew that he had to keep his body under subjection and obey God or else he could lose his salvation.

1 Corinthians 9

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; ,so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[beloved57]

marhig

What?

What nothing ! Can you read ?

Plain and simply put, we're not saved by the reconciliation

What scripture says that ?

were saved by the life of Christ.

I agreed with that, but who is Paul speaking to in Rom 5:10 ? You keep avoing that !

Reconcile means to bring us back to God, it doesn't mean to eternally save us!

Where does it say it doesnt mean eternally saved ?

We are saved by believing, having faith

Where does it say that in Rom 5:10 ? In Romans 5:10 it says we are saved by His Life ! You just contradicted yourself !

¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[beloved57]

marhig

I didn't say that it was in that verse, but it is here!

Im discussing Rom 5:10 now and what it says. Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were being enemies, BY CHRIST DEATH. That means they were put into a right relationship with God, received into His Favor. The word reconciled is the greek word katallassó and means:

to receive one into his favor, to return into favor with, be reconciled to

And this is True while they are enemies !

 

[beloved57]

marhig

Reconcile means to bring us back to God,

So are you saying that a person brought back to God is lost ?

 

[marhig]

marhig



What nothing ! Can you read ?



What scripture says that ?



I agreed with that, but who is Paul speaking to in Rom 5:10 ? You keep avoing that !



Where does it say it doesnt mean eternally saved ?



Where does it say that in Rom 5:10 ? In Romans 5:10 it says we are saved by His Life ! You just contradicted yourself !

¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I'm starting to think that you don't know what the word reconcile means, it means to bring back into good relations, not to eternally save.

It shows us right through the Bible that if we turn from God and live by the lusts of our flesh that he lets us go. How can you not see that, how can you be so blind that you think that you're ok to carry on sinning?

I asked you a question a while back which you haven't answered

Where does it say in the Bible that we are eternally saved by reconciliation?

We are saved by the life of Christ, not by being reconciled, as it says plainly in Romans 5

I agreed with that, but who is Paul speaking to in Rom 5:10 ? You keep avoing that !

Well I suppose with it being the book of Romans, maybe the Romans?

He's speaking to gentiles like me!

 

[marhig]

marhig




So are you saying that a person brought back to God is lost ?

I'm saying that a person is saved by God and strengthened every day as long as they don't turn from him and go back to their fleshly ways and the world again.

Don't you believe that you should turn from sin?

 

[beloved57]

marhig

I'm starting to think that you don't know what the word reconcile means, it means to bring back into good relations,

So are you saying that a person brought into a good relationship with God is still a lost person ?????