Creation vs. Evolution

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The Barbarian

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Barbarian asks:
Even more basic than water. But what is the absolute minimum structure for cellular life?

(Everready can't think of one, but is pretty sure that God created it)

Anyone else?
 

everready

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Barbarian asks:
Even more basic than water. But what is the absolute minimum structure for cellular life?

(Everready can't think of one, but is pretty sure that God created it)

Anyone else?

Why isn't it enough to know that Jesus holds everything together by the word of his power?


everready
 

6days

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Barbarian asks:
Even more basic than water. But what is the absolute minimum structure for cellular life?
(Everready can't think of one, but is pretty sure that God created it)
Anyone else?
Everready did answer from scripture...which you reject.
God sustains His creation... Without Him, there is no life.
 

The Barbarian

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Why isn't it enough to know that Jesus holds everything together by the word of his power?

Because it's useless to understanding how it works, and understanding how it works is critical to any sort of research. Including research that can reduce disease and suffering. If our ancestors just went with "Godmustadunnit", we'd still be wearing skins, suffering and dying of all sorts of preventable things

So anyone want to tell us what structure is the absolutely essential one for cellular life?
 

MichaelCadry

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I'm just pointing out that there's a big difference between miracles God shows us, and miracles people dream up to make their new doctrines work. The former are real; the latter are not. I make a distinction between the two.

Proverbs 30:6 Add not any thing to his words, lest thou be reproved, and found a liar:

I think inventing new scripture to paper over flaws in one's doctrines is unwise.

Here's a trick for knowing; the true ones are actually in the Bible.

If you follow Him, they are the same thing.


Then there are no problems. We are Christians who believe in the Bible. No, there shall be no adding to the Scriptures. See Rev. 22:18KJV. I'm doing my best to keep my testimony in a separate book, which I've had published since 2003. It is in the downtown Phoenix Library {Burton Barr Library}. I am on the seventh edition and there is still so much more that has happened to me that I need to write another book to include it all. But I don't believe in adding or subtracting from the Bible. I've been entertained by angels. Shall I leave that all out of my book? If it happened to you, would you have doubts still? No, you would not! I can assure you.

God's Best For You!!

Michael

:guitar:

:cheers:
 

MichaelCadry

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Hi Michael,
What I put my faith in is based in evidence not simply faith itself. I have faith that my car will start next time and that the brakes will work because that kind of faith has foundation in what I have already experienced before and in my confidence that it is mechanically sound. I don't do your kind of faith, unless perhaps an angel came to me too. ;)

Hi Back At Ya, Alwight!
You really can't have much faith in your car, because it may not start sometime and the brakes may fail sometime also. But what I speak of will not fail you if you only believe. You will see Al!! Why would I feed you tainted meat? I know what I'm speaking of and have enough faith for both of us. So make sure you err on the side that is winning.

Ah, Fish and Chips. :chew:
When I was a boy there was indeed plenty of fish in the sea, but sadly not so much today.
Cod and Haddock was plentiful and cheap compared to other food. We don't live in a magical world, we live in a world governed by the natural laws of physics and evidence.
If we take all the fish out of the sea then there will be none in the future.
Never mind stories of loaves and fishes, that was just a story. :nono:

"Fish and chips" is fried battered fish and fried chips of potato. What Americans call "chips" we call "crisps", thin slices of potato, which are not chips!

Americans then are clearly wrong to call "crisps", "chips", and there is no need to call "chips", "fries", "chips" are "chips", "crisps" are "crisps", get rational Americans! :IA:

I know Alwight! When I was a boy also, the cod you could get a whole lb. for $2. Frozen, maybe 4 good-sized filets. Just delicious. The Lord will return before we out-fish the oceans and lakes, so that's comforting. God will not allow them to become extinct. Don't worry. God's going to refurbish and change this entire Earth very shortly. That's what I've been talking about. A third of the Earth's population will remain on the Earth, and they will know God as their Father, and He will know them as His Children. Everything will be okay.

I ought to venture to make some of my own 'chips.' In the deep fryer or a pan? Let me know. Thicker slices of potatoes than regular 'crisps' right? Sounds yummy!! I wish I could come to London and try some first.

Best Of Blessings!!

Michael

:cheers:

:guitar:
 
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noguru

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Because it's useless to understanding how it works, and understanding how it works is critical to any sort of research. Including research that can reduce disease and suffering. If our ancestors just went with "Godmustadunnit", we'd still be wearing skins, suffering and dying of all sorts of preventable things

So anyone want to tell us what structure is the absolutely essential one for cellular life?

Amino acids?
 

Stripe

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Stripe, First that is the pot calling the kettle "black". "Christians" do this all the time. One example of that is when they say "well, if so many people believe in God, then God must exist."
That means you'll be able to show examples, right?

Second, you don't get how science works. Scientists are an independent, cantankerous lot. All you need do is go to ANY scientific meeting and listen to the arguments. Scientists argue everything until they can't argue it anymore. However, science does have the physical universe to refer to as "authority". It also has the rule that the evidence/data must be available and (approximately) the same for everyone for it to count as part of science.
That rules out any origin of life idea from being scientific. If you wanted to agree with me, you could have just said so.

So, when scientists reach a consensus it is because the physical universe leaves them no choice.
There is no scientific value in consensus.

Evolutionists love to talk about what is popular — and pretend that it is universally accepted — as if this contributed to the truth of a matter.

Sedgwick ... :blabla:
So if I provide a name of a guy who went from being an evolutionist to a YEC, you will accept that as evidence against your evolutionism, right? :rolleyes:

Wake us up when you have a rational contribution to make. :up:

When people invoke a consensus among scientists, it is NOT an appeal to popularity.
Yes, they are. And evolutionists love doing it. They run screaming "consensus" as far as they can from simple requests for evidence. Evidence to an evolutionist is like sunlight to a vampire.

Your posts are a prime example. You've been ranting about nonsense when you could have been presenting evidence that life arose without God.

Instead, it is stating as a fact that a bunch of independent, stubborn people who have studied the data have all independently reached the same conclusion.
Even if that were accurate, which it's not, it would still be of no scientific value.

Since they know more about the data than you do, it behooves you to think about it.
What data?

You imply that there is data. Now would be your chance to present it instead of ranting about nonsense.

After all, when it comes to the doctrines of your denomination, you do the same thing. You listen to the Christian theologians (those who have studied scripture and spent much time in thought and prayer) who have decided the nature of God (triune), that Jesus is His son, the meaning of Jesus' resurrection, how the church is to be organized and governed, etc. Sauce for the goose.
When I am asked to present evidence, I present it. I do not pretend that any number of people who agree with me is a substitute for evidence. If I did, you would have quotes to show that I do this. However, you don't. You're using the tu quoque argument and lying in the process. :loser:

As other people have pointed out, this is god-of-the-gaps theology.
Nope. Davis said that science had granted us great advances in our understanding of how life arose. I asked him a simple question based on that assertion. I asked for evidence. He ran for the hills screeching about how many people agreed with him. Par for the course for evolutionists.

Evolutionism is bad religion and theology.

We know the organic compounds that make up the basic building blocks of life -- amino acids, sugars, nucleotides, etc. -- can come to be by very common chemical processes:Then, proteins and nucleic acids can be made spontaneously by heating them either in a dry environment (like an evaporating tidal pool), or at hydrothermal vents:Finally, these proteins will spontaneously make living cells when water returns or they move into the cooler water outside a hydrothermal vent:These "protocells" metabolize (catabolize and anabolize), grow, respond to stimuli (they have an action potential identical to contemporary nerve cells), and reproduce. Thus, they have all the characteristics that make up "alive".

The reactions are so simple that you can do them in your kitchen:
Then it should be a piece of cake for you to take rocks and water and produce a bug. :up:

What I have shown is that your argument (or "proof") for the existence of God is invalid.
There's your mistake right there. I asked a question, I didn't present an argument. You just spent half an hour making up nonsense in response to an imaginary opponent.

What I have shown you is the secondary causes that God can create life from non-living chemicals.
Unfortunately, God has told us how He created everything. It took Him six days, making your evolutionism incompatible with the Bible.

Please stop using the very bad theology of god-of-the-gaps as "proof".
:yawn:

(Barbarian asks what is the most essential thing for cellular life to exist)The answer: Jesus Christ, who upholds all things by the word of his power Hebrews 1:3everready
:thumb:

You are a fool Barbarian.
:rotfl:

:mock: Catholics.
 

MichaelCadry

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Michael, finding something that amazes you, and presenting that as a reason to conclude there must be a God is a miserably weak, and dangerous, argument.


Dear DavisBJ,

You are too funny!! You are still trying to back out of the fact that there is truly a God Who made us?!! It's not a weak argument at all. It is a strong argument indeed and is only the beginning. You should finally hop on the Peace Train, buddy, or it's going to leave without you. Try erring on the Winning Side.

Michael

:guitar:

:patrol:

:cheers:
 

MichaelCadry

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However, finding things that amaze can help us partially understand, and better worship our Creator... when we accept His Word as the foundation of our beliefs. (Design of our hearts, complexity in the cell, fine tuned universe etc)


Dear 6days,

How right you are!! That was the message I was trying to get across, just lost in the shuffle. Isn't it incredibly impressive to know that each person's circulatory system can go 2x around the Earth? Just awesome!! And yes, our heart and our cells. It all begins with a nucleus. An atom. A proton, neutron and electron. All designed by Our God!! Isn't it grand that Our Lord is coming SOON!!

WONDERFUL!!

Michael

:patrol:

:guitar: :cheers:
 

MichaelCadry

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(Barbarian asks what is the most essential thing for cellular life to exist)

Simon Baker says:


Right. Ultimately, the most essential thing. But I was going past that. What do you think is the most absolutely essential part of a cell?

How about the nucleus of an atom?

Michael

:patrol: :guitar:

:cheers:
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
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As other people have pointed out, this is god-of-the-gaps theology. It is bad religion and theology. In brief, God must never be inserted between regularly occurring members of the universe. This makes God a part of the universe and Christian doctrine is very plain that God is NOT part of the universe. If you want to read more about this, I suggest the book Christian Belief in a Postmodern World by Diogenes Allen. In fact, science got the idea of no gaps from Christianity.

There is a lot that we understand how life can arise from non-life. You asked for "one thing". I'm going to give you several. You can see some summaries here:
http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/szostak.html
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~panopus/abiotic.htm

We know the organic compounds that make up the basic building blocks of life -- amino acids, sugars, nucleotides, etc. -- can come to be by very common chemical processes:
1. RF Service, A biomolecule building block from vents. Science 281: 1936-1937, Sept. 25, 1998. Synthesis of ammonia at underwater volcanic vents. Ammonia is a necessary building block for amino acids.
2. MP Bernstein, SA Sandford, LF Allamandola, Life's far-flung raw materials. Scientific American 281: 42-49, July 1999. Astrochemists show that complex carbon compound, including amino acids, are present in interstellar clouds.
3. J. P. Amend, E. L. Shock , Energetics of Amino Acid Synthesis in Hydrothermal Ecosystems, Science 281: 1659 - 1662 ,11 Sep 1998.
4. Marshall, W. H. 1994. Hydrothermal synthesis of amino acids. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 58: 2099-2106.
1. Kawamoto K, Akaboshi H. Study on the chemical evolution of low molecular weight compounds in a highly oxidized atmosphere using electical discharges.**Origins of Life and Evolution of the*Biosphere 12: 133-141, 1982.
2. http://sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=9952573C-E7F2-99DF-32F2928046329479


Then, proteins and nucleic acids can be made spontaneously by heating them either in a dry environment (like an evaporating tidal pool), or at hydrothermal vents:
1. Imai, E., Honda, H., Hatori, K., Brack, A., Matsuno, K. (1999). Elongation of Oligopeptides in a simulated submarine hydrothermal system. Science283: 831-833.
2. http://serials.cib.unibo.it/cgi-ser...g_art=3523221&language=ITALIANO&view=articoli Synthesizing oligomers from monomeric nucleotides in simulated hydrothermal environments.

Finally, these proteins will spontaneously make living cells when water returns or they move into the cooler water outside a hydrothermal vent:
1. http://www.theharbinger.org/articles/rel_sci/fox.html
2. http://www.realmagick.com/sidney-w-fox-microspheres/
14. http://www.springerlink.com/content/dxq91868368083p2/ pictures of one type of protocell
18. http://www.biog1105-1106.org/demos/106/unit04/3a.protobionts.html pictures of protocells

These "protocells" metabolize (catabolize and anabolize), grow, respond to stimuli (they have an action potential identical to contemporary nerve cells), and reproduce. Thus, they have all the characteristics that make up "alive".

The reactions are so simple that you can do them in your kitchen:

Call Sigma Chemical Co. at 800-325-3010 and order 1 bottle of catalog number M 7145 and one bottle of R 7131 amino acids solutions (you need both to get all the amino acids http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/sigma/formulation/M5550for.pdf ). They will cost you about $70 plus shipping for both. Empty the bottles into a fying pan, turn the heat on low and heat until all the water is evaporated. Then heat for 60 more minutes. Add water. You will have protocells in the solution. They are alive. If this is too "artificial" for you, then put the solution out on a hot rock for the afternoon and let it evaporate. Then add water (rain).

Having shown you all this, have I "disproved" God? NO! What I have shown is that your argument (or "proof") for the existence of God is invalid. The existence of God does not depend on His having "poofed" the first living cell into existence. Christian belief is that God uses "secondary causes" things. For instance, God did not directly create you, did He? No, you arise from a series of secondary causes starting with formation of gametes in your parents, moving through fertilization and embryonic development, and then birth.

God says He knew us while we were still in the womb. He said that He knows how many hairs are on our head.

God does not push the planets around to hold them in orbit around the sun, does He? Instead, He uses the secondary cause of gravity. What I have shown you is the secondary causes that God can create life from non-living chemicals. Please stop using the very bad theology of god-of-the-gaps as "proof". All it does is play into the hands of atheists when the gaps are filled. After all, the corollary is that if God works in the gaps, then God is absent when a gap is filled. You are not helping God or religion.

You do know that God is a Great Chemist Who makes man out of the minerals and atoms of rocks and dirt, and hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Yes, God created each of us, and He created the Universe so that it would work for us. He knew man would someday be able to see past our moon and sun, etc., to other stars and worlds. So He created the Universe for us to live in when we die. What a spectacular Universe that will be to explore when we don't have these earthly bodies to hinder us from flying quickly to see all of the bounties of the Universe. After we die, we are free to move much faster. That's IF we are given eternal life. God decides that also. Let man get off of his 'High Horse' and remain humble for all of the things God has done for us.

God's Best For You, lucaspa,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear lucaspa,

You mean you don't believe God creates all of us? I know that we are all different. Probably twins, triplets, etc. are even different in some way. Can't say I know that one for sure. Yes, God decides if we're going to have a big nose, or the amount of hair on our chest. Also the hair on our arms, etc. I know that gametes are a part of it, but the details are a combination of the father and the mother, and God. I mean, if you can include gametes, you should also include God.

Michael
 

The Barbarian

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The one essential part for a cell is the cell membrane. Not surprisingly, it's the organelle that is most simple. There are conceivably better cell membranes, but it seems that evolution could not change that because it would require a series of nonadaptive steps.

It was only possible to modify over time, with insertions in the membrane.

It's a phospholipid bilayer, of matter that is abiotically formed, and it spontaneously forms vesicles in water.
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear Barbarian,

This is just something I read in one of Stripe's posts. God can make a man out of the minerals in rocks and atoms in the ground, and using some hydrogen and oxygen to make water, he makes a man. Now, these rocks/stones are alive too. They have life in them and so does the dirt. The rocks beautiful life is shown when you cut it in half. The lies such wonderful beauty of how all of the crystals have grown so intricately. It took LIFE to grow those crystals. And the ground is teeming with life, rich minerals and nutrients. Jesus did say, "God can raise children to Abraham from these rocks." Also, the Lord God formed man from the ground, and likewise the animals, birds, critters, bugs, worms, tons of living things, etc. Seeing God is a GREAT CHEMIST and He Has A GREAT IMAGINATION, He is worthy of our adoration and Praise!! Is it so hard to give back to the One Who created/made you?? You think Dad and Mom created you? All they do is provide the seeds that God gave them in the first place to provide. He does all of the Chemistry, and Biology through His power, to grow another human body in Mom's womb. He knows the baby before it comes out of the womb. You think He doesn't have time for all of this?? You forget that He has millions, maybe trillions, of angels and servants to help Him out. And He can be anywhere and everywhere.

Much Love, In Christ!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Hey 6days,

I see there are two other Creation threads now, one by iamberean and one by beloved57. Very interesting. I wonder why?

God Be With You Always, Guy,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear 6days,

Here is something I posted on another thread recently. You may be pleased with it. I promise you everything in it is true, as I received it:

Dear rougueone,

You are wrong again. You must do this so I have to type what's in my book already again. The third angel that visited me said, "Do not worship the beast and his image, nor receive his mark (powers) in your right hand or forehead (mind/brain)." And the angel told me of an Israeli psychic named Uri Geller. His first name means 'Light' like Lucifer. These abilities/powers gave him the ability to bend silverware with his right hand and mind (rubbing it and concentrating) and to move the hands of compasses (by concentrating with his mind and putting his hands on top), etc. And the angel said this man actually got his powers/abilities from the devil, and that he would encourage other persons to acquire his powers by telling them to believe and concentrate. And he caused young or old, rich or poor, etc. people to receive these powers in their right hand and forehead. It doesn't mean that he caused ALL PEOPLE. This is symbolism. And the angel said that this man would cause six hundred and sixty six other persons to acquire these abilities and God would allow no more than that number. And the angel explained to me that his number was like the number of a captain's and his army, or a leader and his followers. And the angel said, "Let him who hath understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred sixty six (666).

And the angel explained to me that this Uri asked his teacher if Jesus could do the same miracles he could do, and his teacher said they did not have watches then. Thus, this Uri is called the antichrist, for he compares himself to Jesus. And the people were being convinced that this Israeli's powers were magic or sleight-of-hand and another man came up, who had the same powers/abilities that Uri had and his name was Jean-Pierre Girard, a French psychic who could even levitate pens, etc. and he caused Uri's deadly wound (people thinking he was a magician instead) to be healed. And the angel said that God would cause lightning to come down from the heaven onto the earth, because God was displeased with this French psychic misleading scientists. And this Frenchman caused Uri to have a big picture of his head in a weekly newspaper and people should put their silverware on it and broken watches, and he would fly across the U.S. in the middle of the week and they could see if their silver bended or their watches started working again. Thus, the angel said that they made an image of the beast and caused that image to speak (by the article written in the newspaper right next to his picture/image.

OK, I've told you enough now. There is much more to tell you. You have to quit imagining in your own mind what you "THINK" is written in the Bible, and what it really means. No angel came to you to tell you that it was about GOVERNMENTS and all of that gist. Now this psychic is also mentioned in Daniel 11:36KJV, "And he shall not regard the God of his fathers, nor regard ANY God, for he shall magnify himself above all. But in God's place (estate), he shall honor a god of 'forces' {electromagnetic force, telepathy}and a god whom his fathers never knew shall he honor with gold (watches), silver (silverware), precious stones (diamonds, sapphires in watches), and pleasant things (compasses, small appliances)." This is also what it means by a little horn came up. It means Satan using accusations between people to cause people to think ill of each other, and of God, etc. to destroy religion and God's and Jesus' words. See Rev. 12:12 KJV, "Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows he has but a short time (to gain souls by making lies and accusations)." See also the verse above it. "For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." This meant that Satan and his angels were making accusations (lies) about the people they were helping, and accusing between the angels themselves, things that weren't the truth. See, I have told you some more. Now quit going around with your made up lies about governments and social security card numbers, etc. God knows what His words mean and you DON'T!! QUIT IT!!

I could explain tons more about your Government stuff, but what I've told you here will have to do. There is no Government stuff, rogueone! You are making it all up!! Things are going to happen behind your back because you don't know the truth of what is happening behind your back, because you are making up things. Yeah, I know China is messing with currency and our U.S. dollar, etc. It has NOTHING to do with these Scriptures. Totally nothing!! I do still want to be friends, but I wish you would be more careful about what you say.

God Watch Over You For Good,

Michael
 
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MichaelCadry

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The one essential part for a cell is the cell membrane. Not surprisingly, it's the organelle that is most simple. There are conceivably better cell membranes, but it seems that evolution could not change that because it would require a series of nonadaptive steps.

It was only possible to modify over time, with insertions in the membrane.

It's a phospholipid bilayer, of matter that is abiotically formed, and it spontaneously forms vesicles in water.


Dear The Barbarian,

I'm sorry. I thought you meant the smallest part of a cell. Oh well, the cell membrane must be around there somewhere (outside). What's the deal with amino acids?? Are you saying that regular H2O affects these cells?

Hope You're Doing Well, With God As Your Co-Pilot!

Michael

:think:
 
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MichaelCadry

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Dear The Barbarian,

How well do you do with the Scriptures and actual events unfolding?? Can you see the signs of the times?? Check out what I've written to someone else below. I wanted to include it in my thread here, for others to find out. Thanks!!

Dear Robert Pate,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but this great whore beast is actually a city (see Rev. 17:18) "And the woman you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the whole earth." I was told by an angel that this city was Hollywood/L.A. specifically that was the great whore and was spiritually like Babylon, for all of the male and female whores on the Sunset Strip alone. And they sell their bodies for money for food and a place to stay. For they go there and everything is too expensive, and they have no way to get food except to get some kind of job if they can find one, or sell whatever they have, in some cases, too often, their bodies. It is a Great Shame. And the seven kings mentioned are sins that the devil has control over, i.e., 'lust', greed, adultery, lying, murder, etc. The additional three kings are different sins the devil has too, and the little one that came up afterwards. These three include alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. The little one that comes up, I know the details about, but you aren't ready for it, most likely, considering where you're at now anyway. The great whore though, it not some real weird animal. It clearly says it is a City! And the angel told me that this whore (city) teaches the rest of the world to follow after her ways, like I said before, (murder, adultery, etc.) through the city's movies, TV shows, magazines, books, media (games and toys . . . violence), etc. That does not mean ALL movies, etc. Some are of course, good!!

That's enough for now. It's the truth whether you can believe I was visited by an angel, or not. There's still tons more I could tell you, but this will have to do.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear All,

I'm just awed and joyful that our Lord is coming extremely soon. We've waited SO LONG!!! And I was told that Armageddon will occur before the end of this year. I shouldn't even tell you because, you shall find out for your self in a matter of months. Keep the Faith and realize that I have the archangel Michael, helping with all the words I speak/type.

Much Love, In Christ!!!

Michael
 
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