Creation vs. Evolution

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noguru

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Again you mean to insult me because I don't understand you, while I simply tell you I don't understand.

If you prefer to see the truth as an insult, then by all means you are free to do so. But do not be confused, I am certain that it is your social strategy which limits you from understanding things accurately. Until you put down that wall, your confusion will continue :)
 

6days

New member
Untellectual said:
A creationist, belief in God as the Creator, observation of the creation that leads to belief in God, and creationism are all different. But still if I believe God created wouldn't that make me a creationist that believes in creationism in one for or another?

Since there are no clearly defined terms, almost anyone can say they are a creationist. Likewise, almost anyone can be called an evolutionist :) -and I have been called an evolutionist here in this forum a few times.... I believe the creation account in the Bible clearly is a literal account...and an eye witness account of our origins. *I believe the science *clearly supports the Biblical account.


Further to your question about terms. *Many evolutionists believe some deity played some part in our origins. These people usually are called theistic evolutionists. Biblical creationism generally refers to those who accept Gods Word as absolute truth, and believe God created in 6 normal days and recently.*
 

Jacob

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If by "literal interpretation" one means I cannot believe the Bible is literally the word of God or that I should not believe what it says, I will not relent. If one means to say a person has the wrong interpretation but should have a different one then we can talk about differences in opinion on interpretation, with the understanding that not all interpretations are true and no conflicting interpretation can be true.

Do you mean literal historical-grammatical? I don't know Hebrew or Greek and I am not very good at grammar, but I believe what the Bible says.
 

noguru

Well-known member
If by "literal interpretation" one means I cannot believe the Bible is literally the word of God or that I should not believe what it says, I will not relent. If one means to say a person has the wrong interpretation but should have a different one then we can talk about differences in opinion on interpretation, with the understanding that not all interpretations are true and no conflicting interpretation can be true.

Do you mean literal historical-grammatical? I don't know Hebrew or Greek and I am not very good at grammar, but I believe what the Bible says.

So do you think we should make such a debate something we do in science or a precursor to scientific inquiry?
 

Jacob

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So do you think we should make such a debate something we do in science or a precursor to scientific inquiry?
I don't think you are understanding me in the right sense, evidence by what you put in bold in my post. So I don't know what you are asking here.

If you are asking if a person can do science without having ever read the Bible, I believe the answer is yes.

But can a person do science without God having created Him? No.
 

noguru

Well-known member
I don't think you are understanding me in the right sense, evidence by what you put in bold in my post. So I don't know what you are asking here.

If you are asking if a person can do science without having ever read the Bible, I believe the answer is yes.

But can a person do science without God having created Him? No.

Nope, I asked a very clear direct question about scientific inquiry and you chose to muddy up the water with a new diversionary tactic. Do you realize you do this sort of thing, or is it so ingrained in your subconscious that you do not even notice?

I am not asking;

"Did God create us?".

I am asking;

"Do you think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be debated and settled prior to scientific inquiry or within science itself?"

Can you answer that directly and clearly?
 

Jacob

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Nope, I asked a very clear direct question about scientific inquiry and you chose to muddy up the water with new diversionary tactic.

I am not asking "Did God created us?". I am asking "Do you think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be debated and settled prior to scientific inquiry or within science itself?"

Can you answer that directly and clearly?
I can try. But you bolded parts of my post in response and started with "so" which to me meant you had not understood the right sense of what I said, especially since you did not address what you put in bold. That is, I was asking you about what definition of the word literal in application to interpretation of the Bible you were meaning. It has been suggested that we see the accounts as literal. And I do.

But you can do science without having ever read the Bible.

Does the Bible disagree with true science? No. That which can be proved by us in science according to God's will has already been established by God. But here I may or may not be referring to the whole of His recorded word in the Bible.

However, to be direct in answering your question, there are many interpretations of the Bible, including the creation account/s, which a person may say are correct, believe to be correct, or suggest to be correct. I personally have experience with at least three to four of them, one of which I believe the Bible proves false (it is false interpretation, not an interpretation to be entertained). That interpretation is the Old Earth interpretation. What is left is a Young Earth interpretation or another interpretation. But you have to see the false ideas that come along with the Old Earth interpretation which are disproved by the Bible.

The Bible is true. But this does not mean every interpretation of man is. In fact, if only one interpretation is correct we must seek to have that interpretation while knowing it belongs to God... not us.

Should a person study the Bible before doing science? Yes. He will have salvation thereby when he or she believes God's word. The gospel will bring deliverance, salvation, and healing to the sin sick soul/person. With the promise of eternal life, science will do him no good before God lest he or she honor God in all that they do... and even then it will not bring the person salvation.

I think you are asking from a pragmatic point of view or stance. That is, should we now talk about the interpretation of the Bible or should we talk about what we find in science? The Bible is the revealed word of God. True science, even if done first, will not contradict the written word. But we need to see what that word is to know what to do with it (where to go from here).

There are all kinds of knowledge. I hope you will come close to God, a knowledge of His word, and ultimately a knowledge of Him (to include having Jesus His Son as your personal Lord and Savior). Without Him all the pursuits in life are vain.

But a person can come to the one true living God through scientific inquiry without having ever opened the Bible. That is what I believe.

Would it be useful to study the Genesis creation accounts? Yes. Would they contradict science? Not if it is true science (I take this high view of science).
 

noguru

Well-known member
I can try. But you bolded parts of my post in response and started with "so" which to me meant you had not understood the right sense of what I said, especially since you did not address what you put in bold. That is, I was asking you about what definition of the word literal in application to interpretation of the Bible you were meaning. It has been suggested that we see the accounts as literal. And I do.

But you can do science without having ever read the Bible.

Does the Bible disagree with true science? No. That which can be proved by us in science according to God's will has already been established by God. But here I may or may not be referring to the whole of His recorded word in the Bible.

However, to be direct in answering your question, there are many interpretations of the Bible, including the creation account/s, which a person may say are correct, believe to be correct, or suggest to be correct. I personally have experience with at least three to four of them, one of which I believe the Bible proves false (it is false interpretation, not an interpretation to be entertained). That interpretation is the Old Earth interpretation. What is left is a Young Earth interpretation or another interpretation. But you have to see the false ideas that come along with the Old Earth interpretation which are disproved by the Bible.

The Bible is true. But this does not mean every interpretation of man is. In fact, if only one interpretation is correct we must seek to have that interpretation while knowing it belongs to God... not us.

Should a person study the Bible before doing science? Yes. He will have salvation thereby when he or she believes God's word. The gospel will bring deliverance, salvation, and healing to the sin sick soul/person. With the promise of eternal life, science will do him no good before God lest he or she honor God in all that they do... and even then it will not bring the person salvation.

I think you are asking from a pragmatic point of view or stance. That is, should we now talk about the interpretation of the Bible or should we talk about what we find in science? The Bible is the revealed word of God. True science, even if done first, will not contradict the written word. But we need to see what that word is to know what to do with it (where to go from here).

There are all kinds of knowledge. I hope you will come close to God, a knowledge of His word, and ultimately a knowledge of Him (to include having Jesus His Son as your personal Lord and Savior). Without Him all the pursuits in life are vain.

But a person can come to the one true living God through scientific inquiry without having ever opened the Bible. That is what I believe.

Would it be useful to study the Genesis creation accounts? Yes. Would they contradict science? Not if it is true science (I take this high view of science).

Nope. This is all muddied up and convoluted again.

Let's simplify and try this again:

Do you think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be debated and settled prior to scientific inquiry or within science itself?

You can answer "prior to" or "within" or "neither"?
 

Jacob

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Nope. You this is all muddied up and convoluted again.

Let's try this again:

Do you think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be debated and settled prior to scientific inquiry or within science itself?

You can answer "prior to" or "within" or "neither"?
neither

Did you read the whole of my post? This answer will be evident to you if you do. Because salvation can be obtained through faith in the one true God, the God of Creation, because of Jesus Christ His Son our Lord and Savior... whether a person reads, studies, debates, or settles their view on creation as recorded in the Bible itself.
 

Jacob

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Then you do not think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be a consideration in science at all?

Exactly where would "neither" place such a debate?
Again, you did not read my reason for saying neither.

Why are you trying to tell me what I "do not think"?

I have said before I lean toward YEC. But this either is the only valid interpretation or there is an interpretation that is neither OEC (which is false) or YEC (which might be true).

Do you believe we should not consider what the Bible says in science? I do not believe we should not. I believe we should. But that doesn't mean you have to in order to be saved. But you should believe all the word of God, including that of creation, in addition to what is required to be saved.

So then the question becomes how should we interpret it... rather than should we choose OEC to fit our false scientific view.

There is nothing wrong with science, true science. And nothing wrong with the Bible.

As for if humans can error, they can. But the scientific method aims to eliminate or reduce the amount of error that we have in our thinking or knowledge base as humans and individuals. There is a knowledge better than the knowledge of science, therefore. However, it can only be the knowledge of God (a personal knowledge of God is better than even that of Theology or personal Bible study, though it would not restrict these at all when the Holy Spirit guides and directs you in this pursuit (it is then not vain, not only in regard to science but also in regard to Theology and Bible study)).
 

noguru

Well-known member
Again, you did not read my reason for saying neither.

I read your explanation. That is how I know it is irrelevant. I already have that all figured out and am able to continue with scientific inquiry without letting my salvation change what I see in science.

Are you going to answer clearly and directly?

Then you do not think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be a consideration in science at all?

Exactly where would "neither" place such a debate?
 

Jacob

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I read your explanation. That is how I know it is irrelevant. Are you going to answer clearly and directly?

Then you do not think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be a consideration in science at all?

Exactly where would "neither" place such a debate?
Which interpretation noguru? We haven't established an interpretation. If we can establish an interpretation then we can establish how that interpretation would or would not be revelvant (what aspects of the interpretation would or would not be relevant to science and in what way).

Since the Bible as a whole is relevant to science, being that it is the word of truth, the word of God (where God is the God of truth), whatever interpretation we come up with (whatever we decide on) would be relevant. That is why we can say there is interplay between science and the Bible in the mind of the believer until which point he or she comes to the knowledge of the truth (in this case, the correct interpretation).

What I have said here to respond to you does not address the issue of salvation with the unbeliever. But it does maintain the view of the authority and inspiration of the written word of God as recorded in the Bible.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Which interpretation noguru? We haven't established an interpretation.

Right, we both accept that is the case for this line of inquiry so far. It is not "specific interpretation" as in "an established interpretation". I mean "specific interpretation" as in "any interpretation".

Will you now answer?

Then you do not think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be a consideration in science at all?

Exactly where would "neither" place such a debate?
 

Jacob

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Right, we both accept that is the case for this line of inquiry so far. It is not "specific interpretation" as in "an established interpretation". I mean "specific interpretation" as in "any interpretation".

Will you now answer?

Then you do not think a specific interpretation of Genesis should be a consideration in science at all?

Exactly where would "neither" place such a debate?
If one is unsure of the interpretation, still while knowing the Old Earth View is incorrect, then one would be unsure as to whether the specific interpretation would or would not need to be a consideration of science.

If science acknowledges a Creator and general reason therein for the existence of nature itself, then the question is if the view of the Bible has anymore it can add to one's view while accepting scientific methodologies. I believe it does. But a method to science may be different from a fact of nature that agrees with the Biblical record.
 

noguru

Well-known member
If one is unsure of the interpretation, still while knowing the Old Earth View is incorrect, then one would be unsure as to whether the specific interpretation would or would not need to be a consideration of science.

I asked you if such a debate "regarding a specific interpretation of Genesis" should be done prior to scientific inquiry, within science, or neither place. You answered "neither". Are you retracting that answer now?

Note: Your irrelevant fluff was removed again.
 

Jacob

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I asked you if such a debate "regarding a specific interpretation of Genesis" should be done prior to scientific inquiry, within science, or neither place. You answered "neither". Are you retracting that answer now?

Irrelevant fluff removed again.
You clarified that you meant any interpretation rather than the interpretation you hold to, I believe?

Then the question for me is if knowing the truth we would want to debate anyone at all. It becomes a question of what it meant by "debate" as the word debate implies a nature of debate that is previously unexplained.

I believe a person would benefit from studying the Bible prior to science. But I also believe many people study science before the Bible. However, though study can only be seen as good in either or these (so long as the science does not contradict the Biblie), one must ask if even study of the Bible in general is required for salvation. And just as with going to church (though we are instructed not to forsake the assembling of ourselves as is the habit of some), it is not.
 

6days

New member
Untellectual said:
6days said:
Since there are no clearly defined terms, almost anyone can say they are a creationist. Likewise, almost anyone can be called an evolutionist**-and I have been called an evolutionist here in this forum a few times.... I believe the creation account in the Bible clearly is a literal account...and an eye witness account of our origins. *I believe the science clearly supports the Biblical account.


Further to your question about terms. *Many evolutionists believe some deity played some part in our origins. These people usually are called theistic evolutionists. Biblical creationism generally refers to those who accept Gods Word as absolute truth, and believe God created in 6 normal days and recently

If by "literal interpretation" one means I cannot believe the Bible is literally the word of God or that I should not believe what it says, I will not relent. If one means to say a person has the wrong interpretation but should have a different one then we can talk about differences in opinion on interpretation, with the understanding that not all interpretations are true and no conflicting interpretation can be true.

I didn't use the phrase 'literal interpretation'. That phrase is a bit meaningless because nobody thinks a wooden literal interpretation of scripture is correct. For example, we understand parables are just a short story to illustrate a point. *We know parables are not to be taken literally.

Likewise, we understand geneaologies are written as history...that it is to be taken as a factual account. What I said above is "*.. I believe the creation account in the Bible clearly is a literal account...and an eye witness account of our origins". *God created us in 6 normal days...and about 6000 years ago.*
 
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