Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

Oh, and the finger problem?

The newly discovered dinosaur's hand is unusual and provides surprising new insights into a long-standing controversy over which fingers are present in living birds, which are theropod dinosaur descendants. The hands of theropod dinosaurs suggest that the outer two fingers were lost during the course of evolution and the inner three remained.

Conversely, embryos of living birds suggest that birds have lost one finger from the outside and one from the inside of the hand. Unlike all other theropods, the hand of Limusaurus strongly reduced the first finger and increased the size of the second. Clark and Xu argue that Limusaurus' hand represents a transitional condition in which the inner finger was lost and the other fingers took on the shape of the fingers next to them.

The three fingers of most advanced theropods are the second, third and fourth fingers-the same ones indicated by bird embryos-contrary to the traditional interpretation that they were the first, second and third.
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=114988

Hiding creationism in what we don't yet know, that's a dangerous game.

What a crock of nonsense!! 'Maybe this and maybe that'... What a pity that people fall for myths cloaked in psuedoscience.

 

[noguru]

What a crock of nonsense!! 'Maybe this and maybe that'... What a pity that people fall for myths cloaked in psuedoscience.

:think:

So in your mind uncertainty in one area means, what we do know is not real?

Are you sure it is not just that you like to cloak your confusion is false claims of certitude?

In my opinion 99% of what you post is a "crock of nonsense". You are a cowardly moron who will probably never have the courage to admit your fallacious claims.

 

[resurrected]

nog - on a whim i picked up "darwin deleted" by bowler - a tough slog through the first hundred pages but it's starting to get interesting

 

[noguru]

nog - on a whim i picked up "darwin deleted" by bowler - a tough slog through the first hundred pages but it's starting to get interesting

That's wonderful. Do you find the insight to be accurate or just words on a page?

 

[resurrected]

he's been laying the groundwork for a historical understanding of the state of science (and to a lesser degree, society) leading up to the publication of origin, and preparing, i believe, to argue that absent darwin's contributions to the field, the development of biological variation and what we now understand as gene transfer would have played out very differently and perhaps not been a contributor to the social movements of the day.

fascinating stuff, but a bit tedious

he dragged me through the state of scientific thinking in mid-1800's germany last night

 

[noguru]

he's been laying the groundwork for a historical understanding of the state of science (and to a lesser degree, society) leading up to the publication of origin, and preparing, i believe, to argue that absent darwin's contributions to the field, the development of biological variation and what we now understand as gene transfer would have played out very differently and perhaps not been a contributor to the social movements of the day.

fascinating stuff, but a bit tedious

he dragged me through the state of scientific thinking in mid-1800's germany last night

I am not sure if he is line or is negating the work by Jacob Bronowski regarding social movements and their impetus. I think "The Ascent of Man" is a difficult book to negate . Bronowski's book is a bit tedious to some, I have heard. But I realize that getting a good understanding sometimes takes tedious amounts of research and/or review.

Let me know what you think when you are done. I might want to pick up a copy for myself.

 

[resurrected]

i may have to put it aside - i just got anderson's award winning "crucible of war" and i have churchill's vol 2 of "a world in crisis" on reserve

and classes start next week and i'm taking an online abnormal psych class with a huge reading component, two easy classes and a twelve week certification course

and i still don't have the house ready for winter :chuckle:


still, it's interesting to correlate bowler's speculation with churchill's history of the period

and one of these days i have to find kissingers "a world restored"

 

[noguru]

i may have to put it aside - i just got anderson's award winning "crucible of war" and i have churchill's vol 2 of "a world in crisis" on reserve

and classes start next week and i'm taking an online abnormal psych class with a huge reading component, two easy classes and a twelve week certification course

and i still don't have the house ready for winter :chuckle:


still, it's interesting to correlate bowler's speculation with churchill's history of the period

and one of these days i have to find kissingers "a world restored"

Hey, I was just in upstate NY (well mid state to you folks). I spent 2 days in Albany, NY visiting old friends (my 3 brothers from another mother) and then 5 days in Phoenicia, NY fishing a tributary to the Esopus.

 

[resurrected]

ah yes - dry flies or wet?

beautiful country down there - my ex is from a farm in the hills down there - now that she's out of the picture i hardly ever get down that way


i find myself drawn north more and more, towards massena, montreal, saguenay and beyond

one of these days i'll have to take a conversational french class - the only one offered this fall is online :nono:

 

[The Barbarian]

Oh, and the finger problem?

The newly discovered dinosaur's hand is unusual and provides surprising new insights into a long-standing controversy over which fingers are present in living birds, which are theropod dinosaur descendants. The hands of theropod dinosaurs suggest that the outer two fingers were lost during the course of evolution and the inner three remained.

Conversely, embryos of living birds suggest that birds have lost one finger from the outside and one from the inside of the hand. Unlike all other theropods, the hand of Limusaurus strongly reduced the first finger and increased the size of the second. Clark and Xu argue that Limusaurus' hand represents a transitional condition in which the inner finger was lost and the other fingers took on the shape of the fingers next to them.

The three fingers of most advanced theropods are the second, third and fourth fingers-the same ones indicated by bird embryos-contrary to the traditional interpretation that they were the first, second and third.
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=114988

Hiding creationism in what we don't yet know, that's a dangerous game.

What a crock of nonsense!!

Comes down to evidence. As you see the evidence shows that birds and advanced theropod dinosaurs retained the three middle digits, unlike other dinosaurs. So there you are. This puts Feduccia's interpretation in a pretty hard place. Incidentally, if you really want to learn something about the evolution of birds read Feduccia's book. It's quite accessible to the layman, and although I don't agree with him on the origin of birds, he will show you a lot of important things if you care about birds.

Quite unlike the creationist dodge "well, it's just a matter of interpretation; you could call it either way..."

'Maybe this and maybe that'...

That's what it is. Evidence has to be somehow removed, so "well anything might be true" is the way many creationists do it.

What a pity that people fall for myths cloaked in psuedoscience.

Yep. And they usually don't even know it.

 

[noguru]

ah yes - dry flies or wet?

beautiful country down there - my ex is from a farm in the hills down there - now that she's out of the picture i hardly ever get down that way


i find myself drawn north more and more, towards massena, montreal, saguenay and beyond

one of these days i'll have to take a conversational french class - the only one offered this fall is online :nono:

Sounds like you might be experiencing a little Northern Exposure. Perhaps you will end up just like Joel Fleischman and find the great city of the north looks a lot like Manhattan.

The Jeweled City of the North

 

[6days]

Did Humans Really Evolve from Apelike Creatures - David Menton

Hey Unt...
Evolutionists have a history of deceit when it comes to 'apelike' fossils. There are instances where human fossils were incorrectly interpreted and assembled as a stooped over beings ( similar to knuckle walkers). And the opposite is done with ape fossils where they try make them more human like. The deception doesn't just pertain to fossils though . You may enjoy this article explaining how the deception is deliberate and pervasive in our culture in through kids cartoons, magazines, movies etc.
http://creation.mobi/ape-eye-whites

 

[Jacob]

On the earlier list from AIG (Ten Myths about Creationism) you admitted you hadn't even gone to the site to see what the myths were. Are you once again just passing on unknown material that you have no interest in understanding yourself?

I am not a scientist but because of my interest in God, creation, and science these items all interest me. I watched the video and looked at one of the items that interested me.

 

[Jacob]

Great article with links but not convincing to atheists. It would be like them posting an article they are impressed with from Talkorigins. We know its going to have biased 'logic' that has a starting point of 'no God'. We (Biblical creationists) also are biased as we trust the inerrant Word of God, as our starting point.
Evidence always needs to be interpreted. As example, your article mentions comets. We know they don't last millions of years. So evolutionists rescue themselves by saying comets get thrown out of the Kuiper and Oort belts from time to time. Its possible... but has never been observed.
Creationism and evolutionism are beliefs about the past, and interpreting evidence to fit beliefs.

A creationist, belief in God as the Creator, observation of the creation that leads to belief in God, and creationism are all different. But still if I believe God created wouldn't that make me a creationist that believes in creationism in one for or another?

 

[Jacob]

What about it? Did you mean to make a point by posting a link a website that has already been shown to be nonsense?

Stuart

I meant to provide more where I was told I was lacking, and when I had opportunity.

 

[Jacob]

It's always dangerous to pass on "information" you get from AiG. Here's the "few" Kuiper objects we've been able to detect so far:

Known Kuiper objects in green.

And remember, these have to be nearly Pluto-sized to find, although we're getting better and better at finding them. If the size distribution is even remotely like that of the asteroid belt, there are far more than enough objects to account for observed short-period comets.

They just lied to you. And you uncritically accepted it.

Want to see some more? Or is that enough to make you realize how foolish it is to cut and past from AIG?

Which AID article are you reading? The one that contains this line, "One would expect that at least a few comets would be observed approaching perihelion on hyperbolic paths."? The second article doesn't have the word "few" in it. I haven't looked at the third article.

Are you comparing these articles to something else you have access to?

 

[Stuu]

I meant to provide more where I was told I was lacking, and when I had opportunity.

You are lacking in critical thinking. The opportunity to correct that is now.

Biologists know for a fact (because they know their subject) that creationism says nothing at all about biology. I'm not a biologist but if you would like me to show you how biologists think critically then I could probably show you. But don't forget that no biologist would have a serious conversation with you about AiG claims, because its claims are refuted so long ago now that they are irrelevant. Even AiG has pages that tell it's devoted believers which arguments they shouldn't use any more. But their Jesus-coloured glasses don't allow them to see that actually none of their arguments should be used.

Just let me know if you are ready to see what critical thinking in biology looks like. I won't pretend it will be easy.

Stuart

 

[Jacob]

Well, let's look at the goofs in this one:

A very few scientists, most notably Alan Feduccia, think that dinos and birds are cousins, both having evolved from thecodonts. But because of the evidence, most scientists don't agree with him.

As one expects, this guy retreats into his religious beliefs, claiming that his new doctrine of YE is the Christian view. It's actually a new invention, from the Seventh-Day Adventists, in the early 1900s.

He expresses surprise that one might think reptiles might be warm-blooded. In fact, we see that the theropods were feathered, especially the small ones. Insulation only makes sense for warm-blooded creatures. They have Haversian canals, which indicates a very active, warm-blooded lifestyle. It's difficult to see how a cold-blooded animal could manage a running, predatory lifestyle such as that of velociraptors.

And of course, he's got it completely wrong about lungs:

Bird-like respiratory systems in dinosaurs -- A recent analysis showing the presence of a very bird-like pulmonary, or lung, system in predatory dinosaurs provides more evidence of an evolutionary link between dinosaurs and birds. First proposed in the late 19th century, theories about the animals' relatedness enjoyed brief support but soon fell out of favor. Evidence gathered over the past 30 years has breathed new life into the hypothesis. O'Connor and Claessens (2005) make clear the unique pulmonary system of birds, which has fixed lungs and air sacs that penetrate the skeleton, has an older history than previously realized. It also dispels the theory that predatory dinosaurs had lungs similar to living reptiles, like crocodiles.

The avian pulmonary system uses "flow-through ventilation," relying on a set of nine flexible air sacs that act like bellows to move air through the almost completely rigid lungs. Air sacs do not take part in the actual oxygen exchange, but do greatly enhance its efficiency and allow for the high metabolic rates found in birds. This system also keeps the volume of air in the lung nearly constant. O'Connor says the presence of an extensive pulmonary air sac system with flow-through ventilation of the lung suggests this group of dinosaurs could have maintained a stable and high metabolism, putting them much closer to a warm-blooded existence. "More and more characteristics that once defined birds--feathers, for example--are now known to have been present in dinosaurs, so, many avian features may really be dinosaurian," said O'Connor. A portion of the air sac actually integrates with the skeleton, forming air pockets in otherwise dense bone. The exact function of this skeletal modification is not completely understood, but one explanation theorizes the skeletal air pockets evolved to lighten the bone structure, allowing dinosaurs to walk upright and birds to fly.
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html
all vertebrate resp system equivalent
fingers in embryology not clear as he claims.

And he's got it very wrong about feathers and scales. In fact, one can change scutes (scales found on dinosaurs, crocodiles, and birds) into feathers.

From an Old Earth Creationist website:
Scutes are the thick scales on the top of a bird's foot. Smaller scales on the back of the foot are called scutellae, and scales on the bottom of the digits are called reticulae. Analysis of these shows that scutes, scuttelae, claw sheathes, beak sheathes, and scales around the eye are of the same chemical composition as feathers, and are controlled by the same genes!4
So, scale to feathers is very much possible, from a genetic standpoint! We may never know the final answer on this, but it is clear that from a genetic standpoint, scales to feathers is very possible.
http://www.oldearth.org/rebuttal/other/sdc/sdc_scales_feathers.htm

Requirement for BMP signaling in interdigital apoptosis and scale formation.
Zou H1, Niswander L.
Author information
Abstract

Interdigital cell death leads to regression of soft tissue between embryonic digits in many vertebrates. Although the signals that regulate interdigital apoptosis are not known, BMPs--signaling molecules of the transforming growth factor-beta superfamily--are expressed interdigitally. A dominant negative type I BMP receptor (dnBMPR-IB) was used here to block BMP signaling. Expression of dnBMPR in chicken embryonic hind limbs greatly reduced interdigital apoptosis and resulted in webbed feet. In addition, scales were transformed into feathers. The similarity of the webbing to webbed duck feet led to studies that indicate that BMPs are not expressed in the duck interdigit. These results indicate BMP signaling actively mediates cell death in the embryonic limb.
Science. 1996 May 3;272(5262):738-41.

Not knowing what one's self is talking about can be a big problem.

How would you propose to turn scales into feathers?

 

[Jacob]

You are lacking in critical thinking. The opportunity to correct that is now.

Stuart

Critical thinking is different as an ability than a acquired strength. So also as a subject. Logic and even the ability to read critically can help a person navigate the world of knowledge, including in the realm of science.

 

[noguru]

You are lacking in critical thinking. The opportunity to correct that is now.

Biologists know for a fact (because they know their subject) that creationism says nothing at all about biology. I'm not a biologist but if you would like me to show you how biologists think critically then I could probably show you. But don't forget that no biologist would have a serious conversation with you about AiG claims, because its claims are refuted so long ago now that they are irrelevant. Even AiG has pages that tell it's devoted believers which arguments they shouldn't use any more. But their Jesus-coloured glasses don't allow them to see that actually none of their arguments should be used.

Just let me know if you are ready to see what critical thinking in biology looks like. I won't pretend it will be easy.

Stuart

I do not think that will change. People like Untellectual believe that their lack of critical thinking is proper commitment to the "word of God". In their circles they pride themselves on being stubborn, ignorant and arrogant about it.