Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

in the beginning God created...

in the beginning God created...

Genesis is very easy to understand... It is written as literal history.

I understand you want to believe this, but it never has been Christian orthodoxy.

There have always been a tiny minority who compromise on the authority of scripture. Orthodox Christianity has always accepted Genesis as history. Its mostly a recent phenomenom in the past 200 years or so to see some churches reversing themselves on what scripture says. But even in 2014 most Christian churches view Genesis as history. Even Muslims view the Torah as literal history. But compromising churches today, treat Genesis like Muslims do. They pick and choose what they want to believe.

Unfortunately this buffet style of Christianity has resulted in a generation of people growing up in Christian homes who dont find the gospel relevant to their lives. *Kids dont get good answers to questions such as why did gramma die? Why did God let the airplane crash? When did God create dinosaurs? etc When parents and churches compromise on Genesis, they don't have sound doctrinal answers. Then as kids get older, they find no reason to accept any of the Bible literally. Christ being born of a virgin becomes uneccesary....Christ bodily raising from the dead isn't necessary. Etc We have millions and millions rejecting salvation through Jesus....because they reject the foundation to the gospel...The Book of Genesis.

So...what happens to many young believers is they are decieved ...they start to doubt what God plainly says....and fall away...

"But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent."

2Cor. 11:3
As to your comment about Jesus. ..yes, He too knew Genesis was literal history. After all....He is the Creator.

In the Gospels, Jesus refers to the flood / Noah as a historical event and person 5 times.

In Mark 10:6,7 Jesus refers to Genesis 1:26, 27 and quotes Genesis 2:24...

The gospel foundation is the Book of Genesis.

John 5:46,47 Jesus said "If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.But since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

God's Word warns us that people will deny He spoke our universe into existence.
2Peter 3:5
They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.

Satan uses the same shrewd methods today as he did with Eve in the garden. He got Eve to believe that God didnt mean what He says...
Genesis 3
And Satan does that still today with the foundation to the gospel...He asks 'Did Jesus really mean humans were from the beginning?'...'Did God really create plants before the sun?'....'Did God really create woman from mans rib?' ...'Did God really create dinosaurs on day 6?'...
"Did God really say...?"
'Did God really say He created in 6 days?'...

For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
Exodus 20:11

 

[The Barbarian]

I think Biblical creationism gives you an adrenaline rush. .

I think people who can't put together a cogent argument are more likely to use personal attacks as a cover.

Biblical creationism is quite different from ID for many reasons. For one... we don't't want anyone to have to teach it.

That won't work for you. The Dover trial was about a group of avowed creationists attempting to force the teaching of ID in public schools. The textbook they wanted to use was a YE creationist textbook, Of Pandas and People.

It had been repackaged as an ID textbook by removing all mentions of God and replacing Him with "designer." Unfortunately, at least one typo in the book made this very clear.

The basic metabolic pathways (reaction chains) of nearly all organisms are the same. Is this because of descent from a common ancestor, or because only these pathways (and their variations) can sustain life? Evolutionists think the former is correct, cdesign proponentsists (sic) accept the latter view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Pandas_and_People

Ooops.

We do however want teachers to have the intellectual freedom to discuss strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian beliefs. Teachers should have the freedom to discuss, but not promote opposing views.

If so, we should also present the alternative view that the Sun orbits the Earth, and the alternative view that evil spirits cause disease. Religious notions cannot be taught as science in public school.

Since all public school evolution courses teach the various disagreements among biologists about evolution, the strengths and weaknesses of various theories are already being discussed.

But of course geocentrists are still not happy, since there's virtually no support for it in the evidence. That's your problem with "Flood Geology" "scientific creationism", "intelligent design", and whatever you're going to call it next. You don't need a spiffy new name; you need some evidence.

Students learn better when they are told how to think ( comparing models) ...as opposed to be told what to think.

So let's teach the controversy. Infection or evil spririts? "Both have the same evidence; they just interpret it differently."

No, I don't think so.

 

[Jacob]

I think what he is saying is that people like Richard Dawkins are not qualified to speak on topics they arent trained in?

If a person is not qualified it gives them the freedom to give their opinion without being an expert in that particular given field.

 

[Jacob]

Behe champions irreducible complexity as evidence for ID. Craig champions the "fine tuning" or cosmological argument as evidence for ID. Either argument boils down to a god of gaps argument from incredulity which is not a scientific argument.

But let's be honest here, you will not understand this either.

I think, from my memory, Craig has addressed the god of the gaps idea before. You are just putting these different views in a category they were not meant for so you can shoot them down. With what motivation I can't tell. Do you know that at some point in your life you have sinned? We all have. I do know this. You want to talk about evolution, and I can't tell why. No reason to dismiss the God of creation and the personal responsibility He has invested each of us with. If you know you need a savior because the wages of sin is death, do you then know you are now saved and born again by the blood of Jesus? THIS is Christianity.

 

[The Barbarian]

Genesis is very easy to understand... It is written as literal history.

Barbarian observes:
I understand you want to believe this, but it never has been Christian orthodoxy.

There have always been a tiny minority who compromise on the authority of scripture.

They are called "creationists." As you learned, they object to God creating life by having the earth bring it forth, and of course, they changed His words to make it "reproduce according to their kind."

Orthodox Christianity has always accepted Genesis as history.

Nope. St. Augustine is a doctor of the Church, and well regarded by almost all branches of Christianity. And he pointed out that Genesis could not be a literal history. And although his views were widely published, no one argued against him.

Young Earth creationism is, as you might know, a modern revision, begun in the early years of the last century by Seventh-Day Adventists.

But even in 2014 most Christian churches view Genesis as history.

Just over half of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics. They acknowledge that evolution is consistent with God's word. The next largest branch is Eastern Orthodoxy. They also acknowledge this fact. So do Anglicans. And almost all Lutheran bodies in the world.

And so on. You're in a rather small minority, that denies what God says in Genesis. YE is cafeteria Christianity. They accept only the parts they like.

But the worst fault of YE is that when people are raised to belief that YE is supported by the Bible, and they eventually learn that YE cannot be true, they lose their faith.

YE will have much to answer for at Judgement

 

[Jacob]

Tell us what you think his most convincing assertion is. And if he provided any, the evidence for it.



My university education was mostly in biology, although I do have one degree in systems theory, mostly involving biological systems and the way they interact.

Yet I can program in a few languages, and I know some fundamentals about computers, having built a couple of them.

So, if someone says things about computers that are as completely off the wall as things Hovind has said about biology, I can usually tell what he's got wrong.

Not always, though. Knowing a lot about what you're talking about, that's a real advantage.

Where do you see him talking about biology?

 

[MichaelCadry]

I am not freaking, but I thought, incorrectly, that you had more respect for your sister than you do.

In the multitude of posts where you have traded information with others, it has been clear that you almost desperately want to be friends. Recently you and I negotiated a better relationship, but we have not exchanged the extensive banter that you have with alwight and some of the other posters. Nor will we.

I value friendships too, but I expect my friends to share some of the core values I have. Included in those is a deep and fundamental respect for women. Your dismissively laughing off the use of your sister’s name as a term of derision is even more surprising in light of the fact that you took umbrage when I joked about your imaginary disembodied companions. You defend your ghosts, but you are not bothered by giving your sister’s name to be crudely used by a sexist joker in return for his continued friendship. Our values, yours and mine, as regards how we think about women are much too divergent for me to want you as a friend in any meaningful way.

Your basic message permeating this whole thread has been that you are a divine messenger, carrying a warning that the end is nigh. Over and over you have asked us to heed your message, or soon it will be too late. In evaluating your credibility, I listen to not only your message, but I observe your demeanor. The list is substantial of the specific things I have seen on your part that convince me that you are at a minimum, someone who has mentally constructed a hopefully benign but still pervasive world of make-believe. If your message was simply that Christ’s return was imminent, then you would be the latest in a very long list of people with the same failed prophetic message over the last 2 millennia. But you take the extra step of imagining yourself as one of the lead players wearing a white hat riding in on a white charger in the upcoming scenes. But alas, Tom Cruise you are not. You might pass as one of the Keystone Cops, though.

You obviously may continue to append “I love you” to posts you send to me, but coming from you there is a strong possibility that is code for “I am a homo looking for a date tonight.” No, let’s keep a pretty substantial distance between us. Your passing out rep points to curry favor seemed just a little bit superficial, but I suppose I won’t need to expect that any more.

You have your sister that you barter for friendship, and I am uncompromising about defending the honor of my sisters. Had I come into this conversation with a neutral view on Christianity, you would have very effectively convinced me of just how vacuous it is.

How is your prostate cancer doing? I think you view that as the fuse that is burning toward your death, after which you make your dramatic entrance on the great stage. How short is the fuse?

You are grabbing at straws, Davis. You are really desperate. I am not searching for friends here, or there. I already have them before I ever mentioned the word Sue. I respect Susan and I know she would not mind One Bit that I mentioned her name, not in derision, but in playful banter. That's all it is. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill because you're trying to sway people in every way you can think of. You do know that Mark S calls noguru "Betty." He made that up himself. Well, little did you know that is my Mom's name. I don't mind that also. I love her dearly and nothing can change that. And I know she could care less about Mark S' comedic banter.

You're trying so hard to vilify yourself and your position as atheist. I don't care really what you have to say. You certainly don't want to be friends. You tried that for one day and thought I wasn't doing enough with you. You are a real basket case!

Michael

:dizzy:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael I am not sure why you think comparative annual sales figures of The Bible and other books is somehow good evidence that you and the other creationist hacks here are accurate in regard to science. Can you explain that to us?

Do you think most people would buy or are even interested in comprehensive detailed analysis of the natural world? It is my experience that most people are not even interested in the subject enough to study it on their own. Whereas most people do have some sort of interest in understanding the overall purpose of their lives. Do you think the sum of people's interest in science and theology is somehow evidence that you and Untellectual are good sources in which to obtain accurate science?

Dear noguru,

If you feel that I have to explain such a phenomena to you, (best book ever written: The Bible), then I don't understand it, coming from you, a Christian. I know people that are dying to get a hold of a copy of our Bible and they don't have a chance yet. You have no idea of the power of God's written Word.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I am not freaking, but I thought, incorrectly, that you had more respect for your sister than you do.

In the multitude of posts where you have traded information with others, it has been clear that you almost desperately want to be friends. Recently you and I negotiated a better relationship, but we have not exchanged the extensive banter that you have with alwight and some of the other posters. Nor will we.

I value friendships too, but I expect my friends to share some of the core values I have. Included in those is a deep and fundamental respect for women. Your dismissively laughing off the use of your sister’s name as a term of derision is even more surprising in light of the fact that you took umbrage when I joked about your imaginary disembodied companions. You defend your ghosts, but you are not bothered by giving your sister’s name to be crudely used by a sexist joker in return for his continued friendship. Our values, yours and mine, as regards how we think about women are much too divergent for me to want you as a friend in any meaningful way.

Your basic message permeating this whole thread has been that you are a divine messenger, carrying a warning that the end is nigh. Over and over you have asked us to heed your message, or soon it will be too late. In evaluating your credibility, I listen to not only your message, but I observe your demeanor. The list is substantial of the specific things I have seen on your part that convince me that you are at a minimum, someone who has mentally constructed a hopefully benign but still pervasive world of make-believe. If your message was simply that Christ’s return was imminent, then you would be the latest in a very long list of people with the same failed prophetic message over the last 2 millennia. But you take the extra step of imagining yourself as one of the lead players wearing a white hat riding in on a white charger in the upcoming scenes. But alas, Tom Cruise you are not. You might pass as one of the Keystone Cops, though.

You obviously may continue to append “I love you” to posts you send to me, but coming from you there is a strong possibility that is code for “I am a homo looking for a date tonight.” No, let’s keep a pretty substantial distance between us. Your passing out rep points to curry favor seemed just a little bit superficial, but I suppose I won’t need to expect that any more.

You have your sister that you barter for friendship, and I am uncompromising about defending the honor of my sisters. Had I come into this conversation with a neutral view on Christianity, you would have very effectively convinced me of just how vacuous it is.

How is your prostate cancer doing? I think you view that as the fuse that is burning toward your death, after which you make your dramatic entrance on the great stage. How short is the fuse?

Dear Dude,

You are desperately grasping at straws here. My sister Susan and my mother Betty are fine with it all. They are not without a sense of humor and there are a lot more women named Betty and Sue. Do you think he's dishonoring them also. And you thinking I'm trying to date you is horrendous. You flatter yourself when you shouldn't. I'm not looking for Anyone. You are quite full of error.

Michael

 

[DavisBJ]

Really hit a nerve, did I?

Really hit a nerve, did I?

Dear BJ,

You are a nutcake ready to be eaten. All you do is try to pick out everything I say, and try to start a war about it. That's exactly what you do. Do you think I would care if I'd cringe because someone called me Michael, Michael, motorcycle? I'll know about the cancer in a couple weeks. I've got a Dr's. Appointment to get a PSA done. Hey, if Susan cared so much about me using her name, I think you are treading water only. She could give a hoot. It's been a few months since I've been checked to see a new PSA bloodwork. Hey, you might wise I am interested in you that way, but don't even entertain the idea. I could not feel less interested. You come up with all of negative things about situations. You're a Debbie Downer. I thought you wanted to be friends. I love people partly by what comes out of their heart, and mouth ... that's how I decide.

Of course, I respect all three of my sisters, and I've had friends that call me something other than Michael. It doesn't faze me, it's all no big deal. I'm hearing talking about the end of the world as we know it, and you are asking me to worry about whether my sister Susan, could care less. I know she doesn't care. So whatever. You're just bummed at Mark S. I would soon steer clear of you. You are a jekyll and hyde. You call me great a few posts ago, and now this. I don't think you even realize what you're doing. And you making cracks about me wanting to date you are out of your mind. That's how your mind works, then I don't want to hear anymore. There's not a chance in hell that I feel like that in the slightest. Don't you realize all of the persons I gave good rep pts. to yesterday?? I gave three others the same tonight. How else will they get their stars??

Well Davis, you sure know how to destroy a better relationship. Whatever. Shows me where your head and heart are at.

Michael

Davis, I have much respect for all three of my sisters and they know it. You are the one with the problem. You just have nothing except to grab on straws. My mom's name is Betty, like Spaghetti. Yippee!! My father's name was Al, what a pal. It's all fine with me and you are making too much of it.

Davis, it's been two nights since you and I decided that was best. I've known Alwight longer and he's become a friend. You are being paranoid. Listen, I've had enough of this for now. If you want to be friends, fine, and if not, fine.

Leave It In God's Hands,

Michael
BJ, do you actually believe I am looking for a date with you. You must think very highly of yourself. I have no inclination of that, whatsoever!! It makes me sick.

I have tons of close friends everywhere, (not Idaho, etc.), but Washington and Oregon, yes. I post on Twitter too and reach people from around the world who are very interested in what I have to say and I have made many acquaintances and friends there. Of course, I have a lot going on. So spare me.

Michael

You are grabbing at straws, Davis. You are really desperate. I am not searching for friends here, or there. I already have them before I ever mentioned the word Sue. I respect Susan and I know she would not mind One Bit that I mentioned her name, not in derision, but in playful banter. That's all it is. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill because you're trying to sway people in every way you can think of. You do know that Mark S calls noguru "Betty." He made that up himself. Well, little did you know that is my Mom's name. I don't mind that also. I love her dearly and nothing can change that. And I know she could care less about Mark S' comedic banter.

You're trying so hard to vilify yourself and your position as atheist. I don't care really what you have to say. You certainly don't want to be friends. You tried that for one day and thought I wasn't doing enough with you. You are a real basket case!

Michael

:dizzy:

Dear Dude,

You are desperately grasping at straws here. My sister Susan and my mother Betty are fine with it all. They are not without a sense of humor and there are a lot more women named Betty and Sue. Do you think he's dishonoring them also. And you thinking I'm trying to date you is horrendous. You flatter yourself when you shouldn't. I'm not looking for Anyone. You are quite full of error.

Michael

Wow, 4 separate responses (so far) from you to a single post from me. You would have a hard time sending a clearer signal that I hit really close to home in what I said. Now, if you direct any words to me that are like the ones used by guys looking for dates with guys, then I will not just step back a couple steps, I will run down the street screaming for help.

I note how, in place of affirming that you do actually respect and honor your sister or mother, you focus on saying that crude and disrespectful references to them seem to be the norm. I sincerely hope that is just an aberration in the way you see them, and that the other members of your family are good people who are honored and respected by those around them (excepting you, apparently).

Anyway, though I am not technically treating those 4 responses just above as fodder for the ignore bin, I am going to up my Cadry-to-Davis post counter by 4 more clicks. Let’s see, that makes 32, 33, 34, 35. More than a third of the way to triple digit numbers. Hope it doesn’t get that far along. Remember, as I said before, silence on your part towards me will go a long ways towards me doing likewise with you.

And Kusper is getting pretty exasperated with you as well. You realize if you get him really ticked off, well – just think about what life will be like after he turns you into a zombie.

 

[Stuu]

Empirical evidence clearly supports that we live in a fine tuned universe. ..created...designed.

No it doesn't. There is no unambiguous evidence whatever of design or a designer. None.

Empirical evidence does show that we are finely tuned to living in this little part of the universe.

The tuner is natural selection.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

I think you don't understand yet. I hope in the end you do.

I note you have no actual argument against what I wrote. So I'll take it that you concede the points I made about these lying cretins at AiG.

Stuart

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear BJ,

I notice you only use that counter when you can't seem to answer the posts I've sent to you, because you're nonplussed on how to defend yourself back. I can go back and get each question and see if you are willing to handle them now? You are a strange fruit.

Michael

 

[alwight]

I don't understand what would make someone profess to have no doubts that a particular ancient scripture was inerrant literal truth even if empirical evidence suggested otherwise?

Empirical evidence clearly supports that we live in a fine tuned universe. ..created...designed.

How does that particular spin answer my question about Genesis being inerrant literal truth?:liberals:

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear BJ,

I notice you only use that counter when you can't seem to answer the posts I've sent to you, because you're nonplussed on how to defend yourself back. I can go back and get each question and see if you are willing to handle them now? You are a strange fruit.

Michael

ignore # 36

 

[MichaelCadry]

Wow, 4 separate responses (so far) from you to a single post from me. You would have a hard time sending a clearer signal that I hit really close to home in what I said. Now, if you direct any words to me that are like the ones used by guys looking for dates with guys, then I will not just step back a couple steps, I will run down the street screaming for help.

I note how, in place of affirming that you do actually respect and honor your sister or mother, you focus on saying that crude and disrespectful references to them seem to be the norm. I sincerely hope that is just an aberration in the way you see them, and that the other members of your family are good people who are honored and respected by those around them (excepting you, apparently).

Anyway, though I am not technically treating those 4 responses just above as fodder for the ignore bin, I am going to up my Cadry-to-Davis post counter by 4 more clicks. Let’s see, that makes 32, 33, 34, 35. More than a third of the way to triple digit numbers. Hope it doesn’t get that far along. Remember, as I said before, silence on your part towards me will go a long ways towards me doing likewise with you.

And Kusper is getting pretty exasperated with you as well. You realize if you get him really ticked off, well – just think about what life will be like after he turns you into a zombie.

BJ,

I haven't posted to you four times for one post. You've made a couple posts and you keep repeating mine over and over. Or typing ignore and whatever number you choose to put in there. It's hardly been 20 so far. You're an odd one.

Michael

 

[DavisBJ]

BJ,

I haven't posted to you four times for one post. You've made a couple posts and you keep repeating mine over and over. Or typing ignore and whatever number you choose to put in there. It's hardly been 20 so far. You're an odd one.

Michael

yes you did
37

 

[6days]

No it doesn't. There is no unambiguous evidence whatever of design or a designer. None.

God's Word is unambiguous

Empirical evidence does show that we are finely tuned to living in this little part of the universe.

Trillions of stars....just as many planets. God created this one only for life. He created you and me for purpose
The maker of the stars is the same One who went to Calvary for me.....and for you Stuu.
Amazing love...how can it be..
That thou my God should die for me?
He rose again...and now desires ...politely waiting for you to call Him Lord

 

[Jacob]

I note you have no actual argument against what I wrote. So I'll take it that you concede the points I made about these lying cretins at AiG.

Stuart

I simply know you are making unwarranted attacks against the credibility of those who believe God created the world/universe.

 

[6days]

Orthodox Christianity has always accepted Genesis as history.

Nope. St. Augustine is a doctor of the Church, and well regarded by almost all branches of Christianity. And he pointed out that Genesis could not be a literal history. And although his views were widely published, no one argued against him.

Augustine accepted Genesis as literal true and correct history. He wrote on the importance of accepting Genesis as history, and the connection to the gospel, and the message of salvation. Although he thought God created everything in an instant, he believed God spoke creation into existence. *He believed physical and spiritual death are the result of a literal Adam's literal sin. He believed the geneolgies were literal *history. He believed Noah was a real historical character. Augustine believed the flood was a real historical event. Etc etc.*


Although Augustine accepted Genesis as a historical account, we don't believe, or not believe *because of his word. Likewise, we dont believe something just because Billy Graham, the Pope or Martin Luther say something. But I do agree with what Martin Luther said about Augustines view of instant creation...

"When Moses writes that God created Heaven and Earth and whatever is in them in six days, then let this period continue to have been six days, and do not venture to devise any comment according to which six days were one day. But, if you cannot understand how this could have been done in six days, then grant the Holy Spirit the honor of being more learned than you are....But since God is speaking it is not fitting for you to want only to turn His Word in the direction you wish to go."