Creation vs. Evolution

[DavisBJ]

Hi Alwight & Davis,

How are you both doing today?? I see that Unintellectual is so extremely polite and it is honorable. I'm proud of him. But I sense that he might be a foreigner of some type, like he doesn't always understand English well or something. Well, did you have a successful day??

I'm still trying to decide whether I want to be OEC or YEC. It's like 40-60 right now. God could definitely have stretched the Heavens enough in the past 6,000 years to make it 'seem' like we have a large Universe. I know there is a veil up and you can't yet see Him, but He can see you. You'll just die when that day comes!! I really think there is truly a 4th Dimension after all. Who would have thought.

Well, love you both!!!

Praise the Lord!

Michael

A few days ago:

… So learn from that B.J. As it is, I am done with you … Good Riddance, Michael

And yet, since then Michael has posted to me over 7 times. Does anyone have any anti-MichaelCadry spray, or have any suggestions on how to get him to actually honor his word?

 

[MichaelCadry]

A few days ago:

And yet, since then Michael has posted to me over 7 times. Does anyone have any anti-MichaelCadry spray, or have any suggestions on how to get him to actually honor his word?

You can see that I corrected myself, and wrote a post to only Alwight!! I've tried being nice to you and you are not nice. So, what's a soul to do? If I meant my word and did not repent of it, I would not have tried to be congenial and polite.

In God's Great Love,

Michael

 

[noguru]

As I have said earlier, I appreciate your consistent politeness. I really wish that along with that demeanor, you respected the norms of how to have a productive discussion. Two posts ago I asked you a very clear and relevant question about what wiki says about whale evolution. Instead of having the common respect to answer, you simply countered with a question of your own.

I answered that question promptly and directly, and then repeated the question you had avoided. Your response was to again not answer, but instead to pose yet another question. If the normal mode of exchange is going to be for me to answer and you to dodge answering, then perhaps your Christian ethics are no more than a veneer.

I will gladly answer your question about creationism being a scientific theory, but if in response you elect to not participate on an equal and honest basis, then let’s just call off this farce.

For creationism to be a scientific theory, it would need to conform to what the science shows. But what the science shows, as regarding whale evolution, is what you are adamantly dodging giving answer to. Answer the question I asked twice before, and then have the integrity to face what that says about creationism being a scientific theory.

Ding, Ding, Ding!

What has he won Johnny?

 

[DavisBJ]

You can see that I corrected myself, and wrote a post to only Alwight!! I've tried being nice to you and you are not nice. So, what's a soul to do? If I meant my word and did not repent of it, I would not have tried to be congenial and polite.

In God's Great Love,

Michael

And now Michael has posted to me over 8 times. He simply has no shame.

 

[noguru]

And now Michael has posted to me over 8 times. He simply has no shame.

In all fairness I have little to no shame as well. However, I am usually polite and considerate to people. Unless they try to use childish games (like Mark Seemshigh, Untellectual...) as a form of persuasion, or the emotional manipulation through guilt that so many YECs try to use as part of a "compelling" argument. Then I figure it is best to dispose of the niceties and/or tact, get right down to the blunt and ugly reality and stop mincing my words.

 

[DavisBJ]

… it is best to dispose of the niceties and/or tact, get right down to the blunt and ugly reality and stop mincing my words.

My interest in these forums is primarily to accurately explain science’s position. A respectful and accurate exchange of posts can go a long ways towards establishing a common understanding. But so often there are the MichaelCadrys and Mark SeaSighs who have no interest in honest dialogue, and clutter threads with a huge number of distracting posts. Michael, I think most of agree, is just an obnoxious frequent poster who has no interest in much beyond promoting his book and its attendant threat of damnation. SeaSigh is a kid with creationist diarrhea leaking out of his diaper and thinks it is really funny to drop some everywhere he can.

 

[MichaelCadry]

One Last Ch/Dance!

One Last Ch/Dance!

My interest in these forums is primarily to accurately explain science’s position. A respectful and accurate exchange of posts can go a long ways towards establishing a common understanding. But so often there are the MichaelCadrys and Mark SeaSighs who have no interest in honest dialogue, and clutter threads with a huge number of distracting posts.

They are only distracting because they get in the way of what you want to see, despite how very true they are. That's why it bugs you. I've been trying to be as kind as I can.

Michael, I think most of agree, is just an obnoxious frequent poster who has no interest in much beyond promoting his book and its attendant threat of damnation. SeaSigh is a kid with creationist diarrhea leaking out of his diaper and thinks it is really funny to drop some everywhere he can.

I could care less about promoting my book. I just want people to get the info in it for FREE so they'll have some answers when that madness arises. It will be chaos and not a great time for reading books in those days, except the Bible, if you can even find time for that. I'm not threatening anyone of damnation. God decides that. Mark SeaSigh has Truth and you don't like it.

If you don't want to be friends, you'll just goad me into posting to you again, so I'm not saying I won't anymore. I know that game too well, BJ!! BJ, you are hardly going to change the things that God has in store very extremely soon. There's nothing you can do. You're going to be pleading with Him.

Sincere Best Wishes,

Michael

:help:

:doh:

 

[noguru]

My interest in these forums is primarily to accurately explain science’s position.

While I share this perspective and motivation with you as well as respect your efforts at such, I have a very different perspective of human social dynamics. Though I do wish such motivation and efforts could be respected by all for the value they bring.

A respectful and accurate exchange of posts can go a long ways towards establishing a common understanding. But so often there are the MichaelCadrys and Mark SeaSighs who have no interest in honest dialogue, and clutter threads with a huge number of distracting posts. Michael, I think most of agree, is just an obnoxious frequent poster who has no interest in much beyond promoting his book and its attendant threat of damnation. SeaSigh is a kid with creationist diarrhea leaking out of his diaper and thinks it is really funny to drop some everywhere he can.

Unfortunately however, many people place their emotional state (which is in these cases dysfunctional and highly charged with foolish ideas about their own self importance) above a clear and accurate view of reality.

In this dynamic evolution is double edged sword, because the only thing that really matters in regard to prevailing attitudes is that people have children who will mature (physically) to the point where they can have children as well. So these people who exhibit such behaviors are not really forced to be honest with themselves about reality and the importance of their own emotion in regard to reality. And that dysfunctional emotional state becomes the norm in their social circles.

Given all that, I think it best that I can laugh at the insanity, lest such insanity would adopt me as part of its culture. So I think you might be misinterpreting my comments, when I do call people on their non sense. In doing so I am being both honest, but keeping an air of levity about the whole scenario. Because ultimately I cannot change other people's minds on this. Only they can do the introspective work it would take to change that in themselves.

 

[DavisBJ]

They are only distracting because ...

If only Michael was a pesky horsefly, I could just swat him and be done with it.

 

[noguru]

If only Michael was a pesky horsefly, I could just swat him and be done with it.

I think one must be very careful with that kind of thinking.

Some are sicker than others.

and

There but for the grace of God, Go I.

 

[DavisBJ]

I think one must be very careful with that kind of thinking.

You’re right. My mother taught me to have pity and show kindness towards those who can’t help being the way they are. I’ll try to improve.

 

[noguru]

You’re right. My mother taught me to have pity and show kindness towards those who can’t help being the way they are. I’ll try to improve.

I think it best to be blunt with words at times, rather than trying to sugar coat things and use euphemisms to make one's words seem nicer. But we must always respect life, whether or not that life behaves in a way we consider appropriate.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Noguru,

It's wonderful to have someone with a goodhearted brain in his head. I think the world of you, you're always fair and cool. Now BJ would rather I were dead. It does say that two witnesses shall come and shall prophecy 1,260 days, and the devil will make war with them and kill them. And the people sent gifts one to another because these two prophets tormented those who dwelt on earth. See Rev. 11:10. It's that simple. That's why you don't like me BJ, is because I torment you like a pesky horsefly. I bug you, I guess. That's because the spirit inside you doesn't want to hear the good spirit in me. Your spirit cringes at hearing it. You figure it out.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[Jacob]

As I have said earlier, I appreciate your consistent politeness. I really wish that along with that demeanor, you respected the norms of how to have a productive discussion. Two posts ago I asked you a very clear and relevant question about what wiki says about whale evolution. Instead of having the common respect to answer, you simply countered with a question of your own.

I answered that question promptly and directly, and then repeated the question you had avoided. Your response was to again not answer, but instead to pose yet another question. If the normal mode of exchange is going to be for me to answer and you to dodge answering, then perhaps your Christian ethics are no more than a veneer.

I will gladly answer your question about creationism being a scientific theory, but if in response you elect to not participate on an equal and honest basis, then let’s just call off this farce.

For creationism to be a scientific theory, it would need to conform to what the science shows. But what the science shows, as regarding whale evolution, is what you are adamantly dodging giving answer to. Answer the question I asked twice before, and then have the integrity to face what that says about creationism being a scientific theory.

Your answer here shows that I should not waste my time studying the evolutionary view you are speaking of. I asked the question because you are asking me to do something I have no interest doing. If you are opposed to creation (different from creationism too) then you are likely opposed to God as well.

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

How're you doing Al?? Did you learn anything from Mark today? I believe him too. Any speciation is just done by God creating animals that are similar. It's too bad you all are falling for it and believing that there is no God, but they all changed by themselves. I don't care what anyone says, the whale was created first from the waters. The Rhino was created the next Day.

Hi Michael,
No I didn't learn anything from Mark. :nono:

I don't have a problem with anyone believing that a god has organised things so that speciation occurs by evidenced natural processes but perhaps we should only concern ourselves here with the empirical evidence rather than bald assertions of faith?

Evidence indicates that Cetacea (whales etc) evolved from air breathing land creatures that returned to the sea. Sorry but no one's ancient scriptural beliefs and assertions, however strongly held, counts as rebuttal evidence to that afaic.

You are just about as polite as Untellectual is, Alwight!! That's a fantastic trait to have. You do know that I was OEC, but YEC seems safer. At least if I'm wrong, I won't have to suffer. I'm also wrong about a couple of other things, but to my chagrin, most of what I have experienced from the Lord, the angels, the Holy Ghost and my visions are accurate to a T. I've been through some times that would have Moses rolling over in his grave. Not to be disrespectful. I love him tons. He's not in a grave any longer. He was resurrected when Jesus was on the Earth a couple thousand-plus some years ago.

Science isn't a matter of which flavour you happen to like Michael or whether you are lucky enough to pick the right conclusion. It doesn't even matter if ultimately you are wrong providing you have honestly assessed and understood all the evidence. A mathematics exam is not about simply having the right answers, it requires that the process of obtaining the answers is demonstrably understood.
I think those who actually do understand the processes and evidence of natural sciences will neither be OEC nor YEC, while those like Mr Kent Hovind are perhaps rather more dishonest than actually lacking the ability to understand.

We're also going to have Tabouli Salad (fine wheat and parsley salad with tomatoes) and also Hommous Tahini (a delicious appetizer). I'm not cooking for everyone. Out here in AZ, summertime is not the time for BarBQ.

Well, will let you go now. You take real good care of your Mom and give her a Big Hug for me and tell her it is from one of your friends!! Thanks, Alwight!

Best Wishes and Regards,

Michael

Thank you Michael.

 

[DavisBJ]

Your answer here shows that I should not waste my time studying the evolutionary view you are speaking of.

What is interesting is the “evolutionary view I am speaking of” is just what science – divorced from any prior religious, personal, political, or social biases has concluded. I take it you prefer an “evolutionary view” that ignores the real world, and instead is supportive of legends passed down millennia ago by ignorant nomads. That is certainly something you have the right to do, shutting your eyes and plugging your ears to reality. Not something I would be very proud of, and if I believed in a God that wanted me to do that, then both I am my god would be fools.

I am glad my interaction with you brought your religious devotion to fiction into full view substantially more quickly than the abortive effort months ago, but I had honestly hoped that the Christian vaunted moral standard of truth had been more than window dressing for you. But I still appreciate your courtesy.

The public library has numerous other fiction accounts, if you tire of the one you are immersed in now. Thanks for your time.

 

[Jacob]

What is interesting is the “evolutionary view I am speaking of” is just what science – divorced from any prior religious, personal, political, or social biases has concluded. I take it you prefer an “evolutionary view” that ignores the real world, and instead is supportive of legends passed down millennia ago by ignorant nomads. That is certainly something you have the right to do, shutting your eyes and plugging your ears to reality. Not something I would be very proud of, and if I believed in a God that wanted me to do that, then both I am my god would be fools.

I am glad my interaction with you brought your religious devotion to fiction into full view substantially more quickly than the abortive effort months ago, but I had honestly hoped that the Christian vaunted moral standard of truth had been more than window dressing for you. But I still appreciate your courtesy.

The public library has numerous other fiction accounts, if you tire of the one you are immersed in now. Thanks for your time.

I have taken mathematics, science, philosophy, and Bible and I don't see how anyone would want to hold to the theory of evolution, even saying it is a fact!, when it is obvious from observing creation that there is a Creator.

If you can see the reality God has created all around you then you may be able to see that belief in God is not unwarranted and neither is it a delusion or fiction.

There are many views in science, not just evolutionary ones. I am not saying evolution is true. I am saying God created.

 

[DavisBJ]

I have taken mathematics, science, philosophy, and Bible

As have I. So?

when it is obvious from observing creation that there is a Creator.

A whole lot of Christians see no conflict between evolution and there being a creator.

Something else that is “obvious from observing” is that evidence shows whales evolved from land animals.

If you can see the reality God has created all around you then you may be able to see that belief in God is not unwarranted and neither is it a delusion or fiction.

If you would like me to follow you to that conclusion, first show that you have the integrity and honesty to accept what the evidence shows about whales. I am certainly not going to follow you when, as you have here, you demonstrate that you will turn a blind eye to evidence you don’t like.

 

[Jacob]

As have I. So?

A whole lot of Christians see no conflict between evolution and there being a creator.

Something else that is “obvious from observing” is that evidence shows whales evolved from land animals.

If you would like me to follow you to that conclusion, first show that you have the integrity and honesty to accept what the evidence shows about whales. I am certainly not going to follow you when, as you have here, you demonstrate that you will turn a blind eye to evidence you don’t like.

It's not just that I don't like it, it's that I don't believe it. It's not that I don't believe science, it's that I don't believe in macro-evolution.

I believe science has many things I do believe in. But first and foremost I believe in the one who created me, God.

 

[DavisBJ]

It's not just that I don't like it, it's that I don't believe it.

Precisely, like so many, you subjugate reality to “belief”. And in so doing, you mock truth.

It's not that I don't believe science, it's that I don't believe in macro-evolution.

Let me quote back the equivalent of what I heard. “It's not that I don't believe Christianity, it's that I don't believe in that silly crucifixion story.”

first and foremost I believe in the one who created me, God.

Untellectual, for what it’s worth – I spent many years as a dedicated Christian. I read the Bible carefully cover to cover, I taught it for years. When it came to things like whale evolution, I, perhaps like you, pigeonholed it in a recess of my mind. I fully expected that someday I would have convincing answers for such problems.

To make a long story short – one day I realized that if I were a devout Hindu, with equal honesty I could pigeonhole any doubts about the Hindu faith being correct. Or I could use the same to remain a committed Mormon, or Buddhist, or Catholic, or Protestant. In other words, it didn’t matter what the reality was, I had a great technique for not having to honestly confront any question in any faith I embraced.

And that disgusted me. I knew that the person looking back at me out of a mirror was no more than a cowardly liar, hiding from anything that made me uncomfortable in my theology. It was a hard and scary thing to do, but I took a couple hours and literally wrote down all the things I had been hiding from, and promised myself that I would accept truth wherever it lead. Hours later, when I stood up from the table where I had ripped the deceit out of my own soul, I was as much of a changed person as any person has been coming out of the water of baptism.