climate change

The Barbarian

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You act like Al Gore was the only Chicken Little saying the Arctic sea ice was going to melt away completely.

The following is from September 17, 2012:

Arctic expert predicts final collapse of sea ice within four years

Show us that in the literature.

Like I have said dozens of times, you Chicken Littles had a field day when the Arctic ice was melting years ago. But now that it's grown over a million square kilometers the last two years, you guy are left looking like the Chicken Littles that you are.

Well let's take a look...

extent_graph_2013.png


As you see, you're pinning way too much hope on a single really warm year. Granted, 2012 saw a remarkably huge decrease in the ice, but of course, 2013 was significantly lower than the 1981-2010 average, perhaps the fifth lowest level recorded.

Doesn't seem like it does your cause much good, does it? However, instead of admitting you were wrong, you're doubling down on the hoax. They suckered you into thinking 2012 was the norm when it was a freakishly great reduction. As you now understand, 2013 was again a huge reduction from just a few years earlier. And 2014 looks to be lower yet.
 

The Barbarian

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Sea ice extent in August 2014 averaged 6.22 million square kilometers (2.40 million square miles). This is 1.00 million square kilometers (386,000 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 August average, but well above the 2012 August average of 4.71 million square kilometers (1.82 million square miles). Extent was below average throughout the Arctic except for a region in the Barents Sea, east of Svalbard. The ice edge continued to retreat north of the Laptev Sea, and is now within 5 degrees latitude of the North Pole.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
 

tetelestai

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Sea ice extent in August 2014 averaged 6.22 million square kilometers (2.40 million square miles). This is 1.00 million square kilometers (386,000 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 August average, but well above the 2012 August average of 4.71 million square kilometers (1.82 million square miles).


I understand that.

I understand that even though the Arctic ice has gained back over a million square kilometers of ice, it is still smaller than it was in 1981.

What you don't seem to understand is that all the Chicken Littles said it was going to keep getting smaller, and/or be gone around NOW, when they were making their Chicken Little predictions circa 2004.

The Chicken Littles are still saying it's going to get smaller and/or be gone, except now their predicting the ice will be gone in about 20 years from now.

How many years of continual ice growth in the Arctic (counting forward and including 2013 & 2014) will it take for you to realize you were wrong?
 
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tetelestai

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Show us that in the literature.

From the VERY LIBERAL Washington Post on September 20, 2012

"The collapse, I predicted would occur in 2015-16 at which time the summer Arctic (August to September) would become ice-free. The final collapse towards that state is now happening and will probably be complete by those dates". - Peter Wadhams ScD, professor of Ocean Physics, and Head of the Polar Ocean Physics Group in the Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics, University of Cambridge

HERE

So, as we see above Chicken Little Peter Wadhams ScD, professor of Ocean Physics, said in 2012 that the Arctic would probably be ice free in 2015-16.

Like Chicken Little Al Gore, Chicken Little Peter Wadhams was DEAD WRONG.

Yet, people like you keep believing these idiots.
 

tetelestai

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Al Gore is not a scientist. But it was an estimate. And probably not too unreasonable.

So you think that in 2007 when Al Gore said the Arctic would be ice free by 2014, it was "probably not too unreasonable"?

No wonder you are so gullible.

BTW, it wasn't just Gore. It was all of the Chicken Littles:

article-2415191-1BAED5FF000005DC-408_638x431.jpg
 

rexlunae

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You, and all your Chicken Little friends have been wrong with just about everything since the first Earth Day in 1970.

Let's take a look at what the Chicken Littles said back then:

If you're going to steal a large amount of text from someone else, you should at least provide a link, or some kind of attribution, or make some mention of the fact that it isn't your own work.

I'm assuming you got this here:
http://www.freedomworks.org/content/13-worst-predictions-made-earth-day-1970


Behold the coming apocalypse as predicted on and around Earth Day, 1970:

1) "Civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind." — Harvard biologist George Wald

I don't know how he made that prediction, or why, but as he was a biologist with no specific training in climatology, it wouldn't be surprising if he made a mistake in that field. And without a little more context to the quote, it is hard to know what he could have been talking about. Much of his activism was focused on nuclear disarmament, so it isn't unreasonable to suppose that he might have been talking about the chance of a nuclear war, which fortunately did not occur.

2) "We are in an environmental crisis which threatens the survival of this nation, and of the world as a suitable place of human habitation." — Washington University biologist Barry Commoner

3) "Man must stop pollution and conserve his resources, not merely to enhance existence but to save the race from intolerable deterioration and possible extinction." — New York Times editorial

Seems right to me. We won't go extinct in the short-term, but we honestly don't know how far the proverbial knife will fall as we tip it. It is very possible that on the timescale of a few generations, we may see a significantly less fruitful crop harvest as a result of precipitation changes and harsher weather events.

4) "Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make. The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years." — Stanford University biologist Paul Ehrlich

5) "Most of the people who are going to die in the greatest cataclysm in the history of man have already been born… [By 1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s." — Paul Ehrlich

10) "Air pollution...is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone." — Paul Ehrlich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._Ehrlich

Well, the population growth rate has fallen quite a bit since he made that prediction, and his prediction stood as an extreme one, not widely shared by other scientists.

6) "It is already too late to avoid mass starvation," — Denis Hayes, Chief organizer for Earth Day

7) "Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable: by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions…. By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine." — North Texas State University professor Peter Gunter

I would say that there were credible reasons to believe that there was famine coming in 1970. We are fortunate that it didn't materialize in at least the terms that some predicted. But, a mistaken prediction in one place doesn't reflect on what is a quite robust understanding of how the greenhouse effect works. And so far, most of our estimates have been low if anything.

8) "In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution… by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half." — Life magazine

Have you seen the conditions in Beijing recently? People do exactly that. Or the air in LA and Denver a few decades ago? They got this absolutely right. We just managed to avert and roll back the worst of it in the US.

In 1970, the United States passed the Clean Air Act, amended again in 1977 and 1990, which has regulated the emission of industrial pollutants from factories and coal-fired power plants and automobiles. The scientists warned us of what was then coming, we made policy (with significant participation from conservatives and Republicans of that era), and we avoided the worst of the visible pollution in our cities. Beijing shows us what would have happened if we hadn't acted, although it probably would have been quite a bit worse. We were still driving around in cars that spewed lead out the tailpipes in 1970.

9) "At the present rate of nitrogen buildup, it's only a matter of time before light will be filtered out of the atmosphere and none of our land will be usable." — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

Global dimming is a real thing. What was less clear at the time is that global warming will warm us more than global dimming will cool us. But aside from that, both have their own set of consequences that are worth averting, and we've actually made a fair amount of progress on that front, reducing aerosol pollution and soot from dirty combustion sources. But, that also means that some amount of global warming that had been masked is being masked less and less.

Once again, predicting that something will happen if we do not act can only be counted as a misread if we do not act and it does not happen.

11) "By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate… that there won't be any more crude oil. You'll drive up to the pump and say, ‘Fill 'er up, buddy,' and he'll say, ‘I am very sorry, there isn't any.'" — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

His prediction would have been true if we had stuck to conventionally exploitable sources of crude oil. Whether newer technologies in fossil fuel extraction are a blessing or a curse has yet to be seen, but this wasn't then, and isn't now an outlandish claim.

12) "[One] theory assumes that the earth's cloud cover will continue to thicken as more dust, fumes, and water vapor are belched into the atmosphere by industrial smokestacks and jet planes. Screened from the sun's heat, the planet will cool, the water vapor will fall and freeze, and a new Ice Age will be born." — Newsweek magazine

This is a popular-audience publication with no peer review process.

13) "The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age." — Kenneth Watt[/COLOR][/I]

My favorite is the last one.

Yes, I can see why. He was wrong. But not necessarily for bad reasons. I would argue that that was a misread of the data, even at the time, but there were a couple of small spike the Global Mean Surface Temperature in the 1940s and 1960s that could have looked like a cooling pattern. That is why it is necessary to take a slightly longer view of the climate. But it isn't as if he was simply making no scientific sense.

https://www2.ucar.edu/climate/faq/how-much-has-global-temperature-risen-last-100-years

Come on Chicken Little, you have to sound more scarier than that.

I know fear is the native language of your political persuasion, but I don't want you to be afraid. I want you to think, and then to act for yourself, for your children, and for the whole planet.

It's easy to point out scientific errors. Scientists do it all the time. Science is self-correcting that way. But it's downright irrational to cherry-pick the worst examples of errors, and use it to dismiss solid science with strong evidence.
 

rexlunae

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So you think that in 2007 when Al Gore said the Arctic would be ice free by 2014, it was "probably not too unreasonable"?

No wonder you are so gullible.

Nothing to do with climate can be predicted with resolution of a couple of years. You can have a colder-than-average year in a given area. Even a few of them. It doesn't overthrow the larger trend unless it goes on for some time.


BTW, it wasn't just Gore. It was all of the Chicken Littles:

article-2415191-1BAED5FF000005DC-408_638x431.jpg

There certainly are scientists who would have agreed with him. And for good reason. He wasn't fundamentally wrong.
 

tetelestai

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Well, we haven't had one recently, so that's one problem. But to establish a climate pattern, it would take about 30 years.

According to the NSDC website, August 2014 ice was the SEVENTH lowest when compared to the 1981-2000 average.

There was more ice on August 2014, then in August 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, & 2013.

Sometime soon (any day now), we will have the "low point".

The predictions are looking like a significant increase from last year for this year's "low point" in September 2014 due to the very cold weather of late.

The ice melt for August 2014 was BELOW AVERAGE.

Also, the Northwest Passage is already frozen this year. Way earlier than the 1981-2010 average:

So, like it or not, the Arctic ice is coming back. So, you guys got a lot excuses to come up with.
 

The Barbarian

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Also, the Northwest Passage is already frozen this year. Way earlier than the 1981-2010 average.

Well, let's take a look...

NWP-2014-August-350x206.png


There was lower than average ice in the Northwest Passage in 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. And this year might be closer to the average.

The recent openings of the Northwest Passage in 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2011 were associated with high sea level pressure anomalies over the Beaufort Sea and Canadian Basin. This atmospheric pattern essentially displaces the polar pack away from the M’Clure Strait, resulting in minimal ice inflow from the Arctic Ocean. In contrast, weather patterns this year have been more moderate, and as a result, more ice remains in the Northwest Passage. As of the end of August 2014, ice area in the passage was tracking above the 1981 to 2010 average. Ice area over the summer of 2013 tracked slightly below the 1981 to 2010 average, but was considerably higher than the years prior. The summer of 2011 saw the lowest ice area in the Northwest Passage since 1968.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

This doesn't seem to support what you were told.

And then, there's this:
Arctic-Sea-Ice-Graphic-002.jpg


The models prepared by real climate scientists seem to be doing rather well. Algore, not so much. Deniers pretty much have it backwards.
 

tetelestai

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And this year might be closer to the average.

Do you read the stuff you copy and paste on here?

The following is from the article you posted:

As of the end of August 2014, ice area in the passage was tracking above the 1981 to 2010 average.
It doesn't say closer to average, it says ABOVE the 1981 to 2010 average. Which is what I said.

The models prepared by real climate scientists seem to be doing rather well.

The idiot climate scientists can make their models say anything they want.

That's the problem. When their models are wrong, they just make new models to say whatever they want.

Plus, all the historical data prior to 1980 in their models is totally made up. They make it say whatever they want.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
And this year might be closer to the average.

As of the end of August 2014, ice area in the passage was tracking above the 1981 to 2010 average.

It was in 2013, too. And as you see, it ended up with less ice. So you're counting your ice cubes before you've frozen them.

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Graphic-002.jpg


Barbarian chuckles:
The models prepared by real climate scientists seem to be doing rather well.

The idiot climate scientists can make their models say anything they want.

The trick of course, is to do what they did here; call the ice extent a couple of decades in advance. That's a pretty good model, no?

That's the problem. When their models are wrong, they just make new models to say whatever they want.

That one, like Hanson's predictions about global warming was decades old.

Plus, all the historical data prior to 1980 in their models is totally made up. They make it say whatever they want.

And in the end, all deniers have left is "they are all lying." Notice the red line. Those are observations. No proxy data. Turns out, scientists just went to the Arctic and measured how much ice was there. And tetelestai wants us to believe they just faked it, knowing that half a century later, scientists would want it faked to prove climate change.

Pathetic.

Chicken Little - (n) Someone who is winning an argument with tetelestai.
 

tetelestai

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The models prepared by real climate scientists seem to be doing rather well.

Show me one model from before September 2012 that showed ice gain in the Arctic?

Remember: There is almost TWO MILLION SQUARE KILOMETERS more ice in the Arctic today than there was September 2012.

The trick of course, is to do what they did here; call the ice extent a couple of decades in advance. That's a pretty good model, no?
No, it's not a good model. They took a warming trend of 25 years and made it continue for 175 years.

And in the end, all deniers have left is "they are all lying."

When they do lie, and when they do manipulate previous data, what should I call them?

Pathetic.

Yes, Pathetic.

Here is more "pathetic" from your Liberal friends:

UN 62nd General assembly in July 2008 said: HERE

"…it had been estimated that there would be between 50 million and 200 million environmental migrants by 2010."

Did the above happen?

I can show many, many more pathetic predictions from earlier this century by Chicken Littles that you continue to listen to.


Chicken Little - (n) Someone who is winning an argument with tetelestai.

Was Al Gore a Chicken Little?
 

gcthomas

New member
Show me one model from before September 2012 that showed ice gain in the Arctic?

Remember: There is almost TWO MILLION SQUARE KILOMETERS more ice in the Arctic today than there was September 2012.

This one:

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Graphic-002.jpg


You've seen it before, but obviously you didn't look too closely. Actually, several model predictions are shown in different colours.


No, it's not a good model. They took a warming trend of 25 years and made it continue for 175 years.

Actually, you'll not the trend is not straight, so no, that is not what they did.

UN 62nd General assembly in July 2008 said: HERE

"…it had been estimated that there would be between 50 million and 200 million environmental migrants by 2010."

Did the above happen?

You might have missed the two million people displaced from the Syrian countryside over the last few years due to extended drought conditions, and the 40 million displaced in Asia for similar reasons.

But if you don't look you will never see ...
 

tetelestai

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This one:

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Graphic-002.jpg


You've seen it before, but obviously you didn't look too closely. Actually, several model predictions are shown in different colours.

Um....your chart from 2010 doesn't reflect the TWO MILLION square kilometers of new ice from 2013 & 2014.

You're making my point. All the models prior to 2013 were WRONG.
 
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