Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[truthjourney]

He is uninformed. We have never been told to not debate online. It is his own opinion. Years ago we were instructed to stay away from the Internet because it was dangerous. Now JWs have a Website of our own! We also conduct Bible studies by email. Now what would be wrong with instant messaging? It's just email that is faster. And these religious forums? Not much different than emailing or instant messaging. Things have changed a great deal. Thankfully not many of us go into these forums, because not everybody is suitably experienced. It's tricky sometimes when an ex-JW comes into the forums and begins putting down the WTS and the Governing Body, and I can spot them easily. Others might not be able to and could become somewhat frustrated, not knowing all of our history, etc., like someone like me who is familiar with all of our history and all the reasons why we have done the things we have done.

Anybody who disagrees with you is uniformed, right? Or they don't really know anything about it as you said that I didn't.

You are not being honest about what you've said in this post. I have provided ample evidence about the Watchtower Society even from their own publications and you still are in denial. I posted quotes from their Watchtower magazines and you denied those quotes to be accurate and true yet they came straight from the Governing Body, approved by the Governing Body.

I have posted videos with court proceedings against the Watchtower regarding their cover up about child sex abuse; their hiding and even destroying evidence and protecting the perpetrators. The Watchtower is having to pay $4,000 a day because they refuse to release the names of perpetrators within the Watchtower organization to the authorities so that a thorough investigation can be done to seek justice for the child victim and to protect other children and to charge the perpetrators with crimes. In the meantime, even members of the congregation are not told about the perpetrators. There is "a time to keep quiet" and to "keep things confidential." And the elders obey that to the letter because the Governing Body tells them to.

The perpetrator is free to roam the Kingdom halls where children are present. They are free to take a child door to door in the preaching work being alone with the child. Members of the public are not informed about the perpetrator to better protect their own children. This is all documented evidence in courts of law and it cannot be denied. It is public record.

And the two witness rule is being used as a way to avoid releasing evidence and to protect perpetrators. When other people are disfellowshipped for much less offenses but child molestation, well, no two witnesses to that so according to the Watchtower nothing can be done except to "leave it in Jehovah's hands". So the perpetrator is free to continue abusing children because surely he isn't going to allow any witnesses to that.

Who in their right mind would have such a ridiculous policy that relates to two witnesses to child molestation.

Daughters getting raped by their JW fathers who are elders and nothing is done except maybe the daughter gets disfellowshipped because she won't change her story and clear her father's name.Then she's shunned by her JW family and treated like she's dead. Wives being beaten by their husbands who are JW elders but the wife is blamed because she isn't being obedient and subservient enough and doesn't do enough to please her husband. So the wife is forced to stay with an abusive husband and continue to be beaten or if she tries to leave or tries to get a divorce then she faces being disfellowshipped; being shunned by her JW family.

Should I go on? I have lots to say.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Anybody who disagrees with you is uniformed, right? Or they don't really know anything about it as you said that I didn't.

You are not being honest about what you've said in this post. I have provided ample evidence about the Watchtower Society even from their own publications and you still are in denial. I posted quotes from their Watchtower magazines and you denied those quotes to be accurate and true yet they came straight from the Governing Body, approved by the Governing Body.

I have posted videos with court proceedings against the Watchtower regarding their cover up about child sex abuse; their hiding and even destroying evidence and protecting the perpetrators. The Watchtower is having to pay $4,000 a day because they refuse to release the names of perpetrators within the Watchtower organization to the authorities so that a thorough investigation can be done to seek justice for the child victim and to protect other children and to charge the perpetrators with crimes. In the meantime, even members of the congregation are not told about the perpetrators. There is "a time to keep quiet" and to "keep things confidential." And the elders obey that to the letter because the Governing Body tells them to.

The perpetrator is free to roam the Kingdom halls where children are present. They are free to take a child door to door in the preaching work being alone with the child. Members of the public are not informed about the perpetrator to better protect their own children. This is all documented evidence in courts of law and it cannot be denied. It is public record.

And the two witness rule is being used as a way to avoid releasing evidence and to protect perpetrators. When other people are disfellowshipped for much less offenses but child molestation, well, no two witnesses to that so according to the Watchtower nothing can be done except to "leave it in Jehovah's hands". So the perpetrator is free to continue abusing children because surely he isn't going to allow any witnesses to that.

Who in their right mind would have such a ridiculous policy that relates to two witnesses to child molestation.

Daughters getting raped by their JW fathers who are elders and nothing is done except maybe the daughter gets disfellowshipped because she won't change her story and clear her father's name.Then she's shunned by her JW family and treated like she's dead. Wives being beaten by their husbands who are JW elders but the wife is blamed because she isn't being obedient and subservient enough and doesn't do enough to please her husband. So the wife is forced to stay with an abusive husband and continue to be beaten or if she tries to leave or tries to get a divorce then she faces being disfellowshipped; being shunned by her JW family.

Should I go on? I have lots to say.

From what you say, it appears that JWs don't mind stretching the truth a wee bit. That's pretty interesting and good to know.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This thread is about worshiping Jesus. Do you really think a person can say they worship Jesus yet go against those who preach obedience?

John 8:49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

Jesus honored his Father by obeying Him.
You don't honor Jesus by going against people who obey him.

One of the copious amounts of things WRONG with you, Meshak and one or two others on TOL is, you're all desiring to live your Spiritual lives as would a member of the 'House of Israel' would, two-thousand years ago. Jesus said Himself in Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Christ's earthly ministry was aimed at the House of Israel and not the Body of Christ, who the Apostle Paul was sent to, later. You and your ilk MUST realize you're NOT members of the House of Israel, you're gentiles living in 2018 AD. The ONLY Gospel that pertains to you is the 'Gospel of the Grace of God' as was taught/preached by the Apostle Paul. You and your fellow WORKERS are seeking to EARN your salvation, eternal life, and forgiveness of your sins. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Christ is Lord over all. Everything Jesus said and did while he walked the earth is wisdom, life, and Spirit for all who obey.

Christ was preaching ONLY to the House of Israel during His earthly ministry.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Let her spout off in this thread. This thread is about JWs and their warped theology. I don't want to encourage anti trinity threads.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Amen, Sherman. This CANCER must not metastasize.

 

[Eeset]

Christ was preaching ONLY to the House of Israel during His earthly ministry.

He couldn't very well preach to Christians because there were none.

 

[drbrumley]

Christ was preaching ONLY to the House of Israel during His earthly ministry.

But she is Israel...ask her...

 

[truthjourney]

From what you say, it appears that JWs don't mind stretching the truth a wee bit. That's pretty interesting and good to know.

A wee bit? That's putting it rather mildly. They go to great lengths to hide and cover things up. I used to think they did that because they want to protect their image. They want to appear as a squeaky clean organization to their members as well as the public. But I think there's also another reason. I won't go into that right now. But it does make sense to me and I find it very believable. I'm still looking into that and there are just too many people, people who don't even know each other, saying the same thing. Especially those who have been in JWs families for generations.

One woman who is a 5th generation JW, or should I say exJW now, really knows so much about that organization. Her father was an elder and one of the "anointed". Actually some of her other family members were of the "anointed" including her mother. The Watchtower had some very special, shall we say, uses for both her and her mother which her father was more than approving of and encouraged it.

Her father took her to the Headquarters many times when she was a child up to the age of about 14. She met many of those on the Governing Body and what she has to say about them is quite mind blowing. She knows so much about them, so many details. And of course her father would tell her many things as well. So really she was on overload with information. It really gives an inside look into the Watchtower Society, information for only a select few. It is totally opposite of what the average JW thinks the Watchtower and the Governing Body is like.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

A wee bit? That's putting it rather mildly. They go to great lengths to hide and cover things up. I used to think they did that because they want to protect their image. They want to appear as a squeaky clean organization to their members as well as the public. But I think there's also another reason. I won't go into that right now. But it does make sense to me and I find it very believable. I'm still looking into that and there are just too many people, people who don't even know each other, saying the same thing. Especially those who have been in JWs families for generations.

One woman who is a 5th generation JW, or should I say exJW now, really knows so much about that organization. Her father was an elder and one of the "anointed". Actually some of her other family members were of the "anointed" including her mother. The Watchtower had some very special, shall we say, uses for both her and her mother which her father was more than approving of and encouraged it.

Her father took her to the Headquarters many times when she was a child up to the age of about 14. She met many of those on the Governing Body and what she has to say about them is quite mind blowing. She knows so much about them, so many details. And of course her father would tell her many things as well. So really she was on overload with information. It really gives an inside look into the Watchtower Society, information for only a select few. It is totally opposite of what the average JW thinks the Watchtower and the Governing Body is like.

Cults are not 'Christian based' so I suspect anything they do, say, or think would be acceptable to their members. They're thoroughly brainwashed into believing ANYTHING the hierarchy demands of them.

 

[glorydaz]

Cults are not 'Christian based' so I suspect anything they do, say, or think would be acceptable to their members. They're thoroughly brainwashed into believing ANYTHING the hierarchy demands of them.

They're an unholy group filled with lies and deceit. So many families are torn apart ....it's sick.

 

[glorydaz]

He couldn't very well preach to Christians because there were none.

He could have come to the heathen...there were plenty of those around.

 

[glorydaz]

This thread is about worshiping Jesus. Do you really think a person can say they worship Jesus yet go against those who preach obedience?

John 8:49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

Jesus honored his Father by obeying Him.
You don't honor Jesus by going against people who obey him.

Those like you....with great zeal but ignorant of the righteousness of God?

Romans 10:2-3 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

 

[God's Truth]

Christ was preaching ONLY to the House of Israel during His earthly ministry.

Jesus isn't limited to only a few people.

He told the Samaritan woman to ask him for living water, and he taught faith and told the Jews that no greater faith than the Gentile man.

 

[God's Truth]

Those like you....with great zeal but ignorant of the righteousness of God?

Romans 10:2-3 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

The great zeal that Paul was speaking of is that they wanted to keep cleaning themselves by doing various external washings and sacrifices animals, etc; they did not believe that Jesus' blood cleans them. That is the righteousness that is not of work---Paul was not promoting a righteousness acquired by not obeying Jesus!

 

[God's Truth]

Not of these works of the law:


The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


Not 'not of these works':

Believe and obey Jesus. Humble yourself. Fear God. Repent of your sins. Forgive others their sins.

 

[God's Truth]

One of the copious amounts of things WRONG with you, Meshak and one or two others on TOL is, you're all desiring to live your Spiritual lives as would a member of the 'House of Israel' would, two-thousand years ago. Jesus said Himself in Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Christ's earthly ministry was aimed at the House of Israel and not the Body of Christ, who the Apostle Paul was sent to, later. You and your ilk MUST realize you're NOT members of the House of Israel, you're gentiles living in 2018 AD. The ONLY Gospel that pertains to you is the 'Gospel of the Grace of God' as was taught/preached by the Apostle Paul. You and your fellow WORKERS are seeking to EARN your salvation, eternal life, and forgiveness of your sins. It doesn't work that way.

Paul is a minister of the gospel Jesus preached.

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

Look at that, the same Covenant.

 

[truthjourney]

Cults are not 'Christian based' so I suspect anything they do, say, or think would be acceptable to their members. They're thoroughly brainwashed into believing ANYTHING the hierarchy demands of them.

I have compassion for people who have been deceived, misled, lied to, brainwashed, coerced, controlled, it's abuse in so many different ways. Most JWs would vehemently deny any sort of abuse. They will defend the very ones who have done that to them. But there are many JWs who have come to realize the truth about that organization and have left it.

It doesn't seemingly start that way. It begins with love bombing techniques. And people are told by JWs that they have such wonderful good news for them about a paradise earth. That message has been used on so many people to draw them in. Then they try to get a person to agree to a home bible study. Then they try to get the person to come to the Kingdom Hall where on the first visit the love bombing is really on a high level. So the person feels like they really care about them.

But later on things change. That love bombing slows down until it turns into something else as the person has more and more pressure put on them. Things they're told that they have to do if they want to please Jehovah and survive Armageddon. And I mean a lot of pressure.

They have to complete a home bible study using several books. Then if the person is reluctant to be baptized, they will be pressured about that. But some people have also been told, well I don't think you're ready to be baptized. So even that is controlled. Eventually before baptism, they have to answer at least 100 questions and if they don't answer them the way they are expected to then the baptism is delayed and they have to try to answer the questions again. I was told that when someone gets baptized, it is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the spirit filled organization which represents the Watchtower Society especially the Governing Body.

The Governing Body also called the faithful and discreet slave are a small group of men who dictate rules, regulations and doctrines of the organization. JWs are taught to revere these men as being specially anointed and not to be doubted or questioned. That is really repeatedly told to JWs that they must trust those men unquestioningly and believe that they receive their direction directly from God. So to question those men is to question God. That is what JWs are taught. So eventually JWs equate these men as the only true channel that God is using and therefore JWs believe that organization is the only true religion. Eventually in a JW mind the Governing Body=God. JWs will deny that but it's true. But what is so disturbing is that these men place themselves up so high.

If a JW decides they want to leave that organization, they are told that they are leaving Jehovah or God but what those men are really saying is that the person is leaving them, the Governing Body. And that is just not allowed. JWs cannot leave that organization without repercussions and it's all about control right up to the very end. Those men will make it as difficult as possible for a person to leave at least by choice. But they will disfellowship a person. A person can disassociate themselves or fade away but all that is really viewed as bad as being disfellowshipped. Then they make a public announcement to the congregation to publicly shame the person.

One way they use is that if a person has a family member or members who are JWs then if they leave, their family will not be allowed to associate with them. Their family has to shun them. That is like holding family members hostage. It destroys families. And those families will choose the Governing Body over their family member who is leaving in most cases.

Anyway I think I've already commented about this in some detail. But I do have compassion for JWs. I don't like seeing an organization or small group of men have that much power over a person and their life even to the point that they can turn your family completely against you making sure you suffer the consequences for leaving their organization as if they think they own you for life. I don't like that.

 

[marhig]

One can speak for all when scripture says that all have sinned and fall short, and that if anyone says they are without sin, they are a liar.

I knew right from wrong, and had a conscience that found it hard to sin, before I was saved.
The same could be said of many atheists, that they could also know right from wrong and have a conscience that doesn't want to sin.
Since we have scripture that tells us that all have sinned and that any that say they are without are liars, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit hasn't made anyone stop sinning.

Not sure why you would say "every day" or "know in your heart".
Sin is sin whether you sin once or every day, or whether you knew it in your heart or not.
So it has never been a question of how much or little you sin.

I don't know of a single instance when GOD chastened or scourged me when I sinned.
That sort of mentality is akin to what Job's friends kept saying to him ----- "Geeze, Job, these awful things wouldn't be happening to you unless you did something wrong to be chastised for".
They were the ones doing wrong, and yet it was Job that was suffering, not them.

Tambora that's true, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because none of us have the Holy Spirit until we are born anew of God but once we are born of God, then the Spirit should be helping us to overcome sin. Because it's then that the Spirit starts cleansing our hearts and showing us our sins and showing us the what we were doing before was wrong before God and the spirit now shows us our sins even before we do them and prompts us not to do it, and once we know God, and know it's wrong to do, then we should stop doing it. And as we grow stronger in Spirit, the stronger our conscience becomes, and the harder it should be to sin.

None of us can say that we don't sin, because as John says, we will be liars if we said that. There is a difference in sinning without realising that you are doing it at the time and making mistakes, to wilful sinning. There are many times I do something and then i realise I was wrong and that I've sinned, and then I go to God and say sorry and put it right if I can. But purposely sinning before God is different. Jesus said to the Jews, because you say you see, your sin remains. And Paul talks about what he was like before he truly knew God, and said what he did was in ignorance so he obtained mercy.

1 Timothy 1

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


Before we know God, we don't know that we sinning against him, because we don't know him, we know we're wrong, but we see it as ok, we do wrong things for our own sakes or to hurt others through spite of jealousy and we have a bit if a conscience but we'll do these things anyway. We'll lie and cheat and be underhand all for self gain or to get at others. But when we know God we should be stopping all that, and if the Spirit is within us, he'll be showing us where we are going wrong and he'll be guiding us away from sin and prompting us to do what right.

And as our heart begins to change and becomes more like that of Jesus, then the love of God should be growing within us, and putting to death those wrong ways and wicked thoughts, by Christ through the power of the spirit. Changing our hearts so that we even care for those who hate us. And instead of living by the works of the flesh under the influence of Satan, we walk in the Spirit under the guidance of God, and start to turn from sin and produce the fruits of the Spirit by the grace of God through faith, and the Spirit of God will help us to overcome the flesh and the world and we have a perfect example to follow in our Lord Jesus Christ who brought us a new and living way to follow and he taught and showed us to live before the father.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

There's no difference in a BEING and a PERSON. They mean the same thing in discussions about conscious individuals.

@Ask Mr. Religion, care to chime in? (Just on this, I've got the rest covered.)

There is a difference indeed. The word being as used formally by the church in discussions of theology proper (being, attributes, works of God) means essence.

By ascribing simplicity to God we mean that He is not composed of various parts, such as the body and soul in man, and for that very reason God is not subject to division. The three persons in the Godhead are not so many parts of which the divine essence is composed. For example, we do not say the one divine essence of God is 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son, 1/3 Holy Spirit. Rather, we properly say the whole essence (being) of God belongs to each one of the Persons.

In other words, within that one divine essence are three personal distinctions: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Essence is the very being of God—the very, eternal, and only Deity—while the term Person refers to the manner in which the being of God, or the divine essence, subsists in each of these three.

- God the Father is that Being, or essence, who is of himself, and not from another.
- The Son is that self-same Being, or essence, not of himself, but of the Father.
- The Holy Spirit is in like manner the self-same Being, or essence, not of himself, but from the Father and the Son.

Thus the Being, or divine essence, of the there persons of the Godhead is one and the same in number. But to be of himself, or from another—from one, or from two; that is, to have this one divine essence of himself, or to have it communicated from another—from one or from two, expresses the manner of existence which is three-fold and distinct. To wit, to be of himself, to be begotten or generated, and to proceed; and hence, the three persons which are expressed by the term, Trinity.

See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5113770&viewfull=1#post5113770

AMR

 

[marhig]

John 3:16 might just give you a hint? Why do YOU think He had to die or not die according to your belief system?

Why would John 3:16 give me the hint? Thanks