Am Yisrael Chai!
Can a JW be a Christian.
- Thread starter Lazy afternoon
- Start date
Am Yisrael Chai!
Jehovah's Witnesses are almost universally seen as a cult. Most protestant churches have some form of pamphlet or direct teaching that warns against them as well as Mormons.
As for the question 'can a JW be a Christian?'- well, it's a bit of a loaded one. It depends on how one is defining 'Christian'. In any orthodox sense? Definitely not.
As for the question 'can a JW be a Christian?'- well, it's a bit of a loaded one. It depends on how one is defining 'Christian'. In any orthodox sense? Definitely not.
musterion
Well-known member
Feral Phoenician
New member
Of course! I used to go to church with my ex wife fairly often (it put a smile on her face, and if I couldn't give her an hour and a half of happiness, what good was I?).
Do I believe Jesus is God? No. Do I believe Jesus is the Son of God? No. Do I believe He was a real person? Yes (I just can't see the world's largest Religion being based off of a fictional character).
Another question would be "what do I think of Christians".
There is an old Jewish quasi-proverb that goes "Ask two Rabbis one question and you will receive three answers".
*Some* Jews believe Christians are Pagans and Idolaters, or are "close enough to". I do not agree with that all. I see Christians as "Righteous Gentiles" who are practicing a "different" form of B'nai Noach (Noahide).
http://m.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm
Yes, I'm aware that link is from The Chabadniks (Lubavitcher Hasidim/Chabad Lubavitch), but as much as I can sometimes "clash" with them, they do do a good job of promoting Noahidism.
Jehovah's Witnesses
-do not hold to the Trinity, or otherwise that Christ is God
-they believe there is no Hell
-they believe in dualism ~ouch~
They have had a share of absurd false prophets and have proposed Jesus' return in 1914 within an inner chamber of a pyramid. To save face, they switched their doctrines and interpretations up to account for these deceptions.
These are the reasons why they aren't accepted in the Christian ranks- they virtually swim in heresy, and to a point where they don't even try to put up much defense. Rather, they just act like martyrs.
It's painfully obvious and orthodox, traditional Christians should come to terms with it- it's incontrovertible.
The moment you start giving these type of people confidence, you open up a floodgate of insanity.
-do not hold to the Trinity, or otherwise that Christ is God
-they believe there is no Hell
-they believe in dualism ~ouch~
They have had a share of absurd false prophets and have proposed Jesus' return in 1914 within an inner chamber of a pyramid. To save face, they switched their doctrines and interpretations up to account for these deceptions.
These are the reasons why they aren't accepted in the Christian ranks- they virtually swim in heresy, and to a point where they don't even try to put up much defense. Rather, they just act like martyrs.
It's painfully obvious and orthodox, traditional Christians should come to terms with it- it's incontrovertible.
The moment you start giving these type of people confidence, you open up a floodgate of insanity.
musterion
Well-known member
Assuming you accept the record as accurate to this degree, what do you make of the Jews like Peter, James, John, Luke and Paul who came to accept Christ? Let's include the many Jews since then who have done so as well. I know you believe they're wrong, but why are they wrong?
Feral Phoenician
New member
Hoo boy. At the risk of opening one heck of a can of worms, I'll tell you.
Assuming they were also real people, which I personally think they were, I do feel they made a mistake, but not a "deadly mistake".
I believe they mistook a very wise Sage and Scholar as The Messiah. I look at them as I do modern Lubavitcher Hasidim, who venerate Rabbi Schneerson ("The Rebbe"). There are Chabadniks who believe Rabbi Schneerson is The Messiah, that he's not really dead, or will be reincarnated (long, long story involving Hasidism, which is "kind of" like "Mystical Orthodox Judaism").
Do I believe Peter, Paul, Mark, etc remained Jews? Yes I do. I do not feel Yiddishkeit ("Jewishness") can be lost so easy.
I have had more than a few discussions with jehovah witnesses
-and
-they all have been pleasant
-they walk the talk
-you can only blame yourself
-if
-you have had a unpleasant experience with them
musterion
Well-known member
That's what TOL is here for.
I appreciate that but it doesn't really answer the question.
You take for granted they they existed. Okay. You assume Jesus existed. Good.
The apostles claimed to have personally known Him (you'll pardon my capitalization).
They would have known if He were a fraud or insane. That, in turn, precludes the idea that they conspired to bear false witness to Him, for they gained nothing material from it. Just the opposite. They each suffered and most of them died very badly for what they would have known was not true. It does not make sense. SOMEONE would have cracked.
So how would you explain their faith and testimony in the face of horrid persecutions and even more horrid deaths...over nothing?
musterion
Well-known member
You really need to work on your haiku.
Feral Phoenician
New member
I don't mind the Capitalization (I do it to out of respect. This is a Christian forum, and Christians believe the Jesus is He. It would be rude of me not to).
I'm man enough to admit when I don't know, so I'll tell you, "I don't know".
I don't know why the Apostles believed Jesus was The Messiah. In "my heart of hearts", I do not at all believe they were trying to gain anything, or deliberately deceive anyone. I've read the New Testament, and I don't see malice in their actions and beliefs.
I'll go back to the Chabad Lubavitch. Many of them do believe Rabbi Schneersohn to be The Messiah (though it can be tough to pin them down to that, you might even be treated to one heck of a tap dance).
As to the Apostles and Disciples, I'm certain they had their reasons. They were willing to die, and as you put it, even horribly for their beliefs, and for that they are worthy of respect.
Sorry I don't have a better answer.
Feral Phoenician
New member
After I've been here awhile, and start to trust people, I'll tell my story. To answer your question, though, the answer is "yes".
Personal responsibility and accountability are huge to me, and I try to instill it in my daughters.
when it comes to thoughtfulness, the jehovah witnesses have you beat
-they actually work at it
theophilus
Well-known member
There was a poster on another board (long ago and far away) named "Children of Raven" who used to get really upset with the JW's hitting his doorbell on Saturday mornings.
He decided he was going to start answering the door naked when they showed up.
Turned our it worked and they quit going by his house.
:think:
God's Truth
New member
According to your denomination, the JW's go against your church and so are all condemned to Hell, unless they join your church before they die.
Often, I'll ask others what they'd meant by this or that, before allowing myself to conclude on it.
In this same spirit - what do YOU mean by what you said about that individual..
For in my own understanding, the fact that a person is a JW, or a Roman Catholic, or a Mormon, or a this, or a that, does not necessarily mean they started off from that.
Given that I believe in "sealed unto the redemption of the purchased possession" (eternal security - the result of "HIS workmenship" the moment that one believes that "Christ died for sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again according to the Scriptures") - given that I believe in that, I believe that for all I know, the person I am dealing with may have believed that as well, at some earlier point BEFORE their present confession.
That they may have ended up "in the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" at a later point, and are now doing his work does not change the fact of their sealing.
But they are still in serious error.
What is your criteria for assuring yourself that the above individual you are describing was "in the Lord."
"Truly seeking the Lord" is not up for the subjective understanding of one.
Rather, it is determined by the Scripture's criteria of that.
As the late Mother Teresa (may she have "known the Lord") often proved by her error - just because some one is a kind, loving, all out self-sacrificing individual, does necessarily mean right off that they are seeking the Lord and or in the Lord.
In her case, there is an old PBS special on her in which she is seen doing her work among the poorest of the poor.
The PBS reporter asks her something like "do you tell them about Jesus?"
She had just passed away and was being celebrated by the media as an individual who had allowed others be where they were.
The fool world's criteria of "a good person" once again.
She replies that there are many paths to God, the Brahman has his, the Buddhist his..." and so on.
To me, that is neither seeking, nor being in, the Lord.
Thus, even if she ever had it as right as 1 Cor. 15:1-4 asserts it is, she was not doing "the work of the Lord."
What she was doing was the old myth against the finished work of the Cross commonly known as "suffering for Jesus."
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
So, I ask you, what did you mean by the above?
What is your criteria for the above as to what you asserted about what you concluded about that individual.
For, at this point, you continue to reveal you are clueless as ever as to what the gospel of Christ actually is, and this alone is an issue one must be crystal clear on.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Feral Phoenician
New member
Ha haha that's hilarious!There was a poster on another board (long ago and far away) named "Children of Raven" who used to get really upset with the JW's hitting his doorbell on Saturday mornings.
He decided he was going to start answering the door naked when they showed up.
Turned our it worked and they quit going by his house.
:think:
Nah, I'm always polite and cordial with them. In the grand scheme of things, it's just a minor annoyance.
Daniel1769
New member
The JW's teach works salvation, and they deny the divinity of Christ. They're not saved.
There was a poster on another board (long ago and far away) named "Children of Raven" who used to get really upset with the JW's hitting his doorbell on Saturday mornings.
He decided he was going to start answering the door naked when they showed up.
Turned our it worked and they quit going by his house.
:think:
:rotfl: