Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
SOTK,

Do you understand how offensive and arrogant it is to condemn 70 % of the worlds population to hell for not “knowing” Jesus. If there was a God who would do such a thing he is worse than the worst of human tyrants who ever lived.. but then I guess back in Noahs day he didn’t hesitate to destroy every man woman and innocent child on the planet.. Of all the fantasy Gods man has come up with.. how can you (or why would you want to) swallow that one !

As I stated in my other post, you or anybody for that matter, has the right to feel the way you do and it's your choice. I won't condemn anybody. It's not up to me. If you choose to feel that God is offensive and arrogant, than fine, feel that way. Your decisions are between you and Him.

Sincerely,

SOTK

 

[Spartin]

Originally posted by SOTKForEver
Spartin,

First of all, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity. I have read some of your other posts than this.

If you are an Agnostic, than you must believe in some form of a Higher Power. In other words, you probably feel that the universe was created a supreme being and also probably feel that this supreme being created man as well. So basically, you don't conform to any one religion on the planet and choose to form an image of this higher power into your own making. Am I off the mark? If I am, please let me know. When I was an Agnostic, this was how I felt.

A lot of what the Bible states was hard for me to swallow growing up. I also felt the Bible to be just a book; a book that was meant to make people feel comfortable about their current lives as well as their afterlife. I also felt that I was a pretty good guy. I had a serious problem with people as well as the Bible telling me that I had to believe something and admit to something in order for me to be accepted into heaven. So, I chose to believe that this supreme being, whoever or whatever he was, was not nearly as harsh as the Bible and Christians made Him out to be.

I changed my mind, obviously, about these beliefs when I learned the truth about God. I learned the truth after He helped me with something. What I came to realize about myself is that I was guilty of being arrogant by thinking I knew God's (the supreme being) mind. I mean, I am obviously not a supreme being. My knowledge is limited to earthly things and my emotions as well are earthly. The supreme being, who I now choose to believe is God or Jesus Christ, is tremendously above me and my petty thoughts. Who am I to claim what God is all about? Who am I to questions his motives and plans? After all, he is Supreme. He made the universe, he made the earth, and he made man.

After coming to this realization, I also realized that God does love me and wishes for me to be saved. He wishes to have communion with me. However, in order for this to happen, I need to accept His son, who he sent to pave the way for his children to have communion with him again. We lost this communion with the original sin. Since God gave us freewill after this, we can choose to believe in His son or not. Again, God wishes for all men to be saved. Remember, humans are ones who screw up and not God. It is up to us to make amends for our sins. We do that by accetping the awesome gift of Jesus and asking for forgiveness. I suddenly realized what a tremendous gift God gave. I stopped looking at the "harshness" of this choice and realized it was a gift because there was no way for man to repair the damage which was done and still is done to this relationship with God. Jesus was and is the only way.

Also, if you are willing to believe in some form of a higher power, isn't it safe to assume that He or It is tremendously more powerful than you and I are? I mean, sheesh, he made the universe. What I am getting at here is that common sense would dictate that we should be obdient to this higher power just as a child should respect the parents as an authority figure. It's ok to fear God. We should fear Him. Fear motivates me to be accountable for my actions and behaviors; to take ownership for these behaviors and ask for forgiveness. I think I am a "good guy" for the most part but I still screw up quite a bit. I am very far from being perfect. So, if God says I should do something, or not do something, or to believe that the things He says as being exactly what he means, than I better do it. Just because I am a Christian and know that I am going to heaven, doesn't mean that I am not accountable to God for the things I've done while on earth.

So, Spartin, to answer your question, "Will I go to hell for not believing what Christians believe eventhough I am a good guy?", yes, you will unfortunately. We have all been told what Jesus said and we should all know why he existed. We have the choice to believe in this or not. Remember, God wants everyone to be saved but you are going to have to believe in His son and be obedient to Him if you want to have communion with Him.

Sorry, I know I got on my soap box but I hope I wrote something that may be of use to you.

Sincerely,

SOTKForever

First off, thanks for taking the time to read and think about my post here. Personally, I think the god that created this whole thing did it according to the laws that are set down in the universe. It may be the fact that he/she/it set these laws down as a limitation for us to get a grip on the whole reality thing. We as humans have to categorize(hence the he/she/it), quantify everything that is around us. This falls into our limitations nicely. I think there will be a time in our evolution (part of the reason I don't believe in the bible) we will find out how god created this whole thing. It is at all possible that these are the confines to a smaller room in the greater existence that we must understand before we can grasp even further than that. In relation to the battle royale, we are but toddlers explaining a concept that University proffessors have a difficult time comprehending. We are not there and we won't be for many years.


To the end of your post you stated that you should fear god. I don't believe this is the case. I think it is a form of control over the masses. Would an all loving deity ask for you to fear him/her/it? That is simply illogical. Love on that greater level should not exisit with fear. To top it all off, fear makes the man act differently than he normally would. I want someone/thing to accept me for what I am. Not something I am conforming to. I am here to Do something, not Be something.


Spartin

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by ZroKewl
That is not an Agnostic. An agnostic is someone who lacks knowledge of any deities. They do not know whether or not any deities exist. On one side, an agnostic is a searcher -- continuing to look for enough evidence in a deity. They could spend lots of time trying to do just that. However, on the other side, an agnostic might believe that there is no way anyone could ever have sufficient knowledge to know that a deity exists. The latter agnostic does not spend time searching for something he sees as fruitless.

From the sound of it, you would have been a "deist" -- you believe in some form of deity -- a god -- but did not have firm beliefs in what or who it was.

--ZK

Thanks. It does sound like I was more of a Deist. However, an Agnostic could also be defined as someone who is highly skeptical of God's existence but does not profess true atheism either. I think I felt like that at one point in time also.

Sincerely,

SOTK

 

[Spartin]

Originally posted by Turbo
Spartin, this strikes me as irrational. How did you come to this conclusion? Even the most anti-Christ historians recognize that Jesus lived.

I don't believe that the Jesus in the Bible lived. Legends/heroes are played up more than what they really are. He was an extrodinary person for sure but; I think he was made the focal point. Nothing more. How is it irrational that I don't believe that a supernatural person existed? I don't believe in the tooth-fairy. I am not an Anti-Christ either. I don't even believe in Christ. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Anti-Christ people actually believe that Jesus (in your definition) walked the earth. I don't believe he did. Not illogical. If you are going to argue about something, please take the time to understand the position of the other person before diving in.



Spartin

 

[Spartin]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I don't either.



So do I.



I know that. I never equated the two.



I'm not.

You never say "I think you are wrong". You state that they are wrong. There is no ifs ands or buts in what you say. You are acting according to what you think is absolute. What others think is immeterial. You may not see it because you have been living this way for years, sadly to say; but that is the way you are.I can quote you from numerous amounts of posts from this thread alone. You making statements of fact as opposed to opinion. The only person in your life that is able to make statements of fact is God. Not one eyed Jack. Don't be condescending, be someone with a position.


Next off why are you so concerned about Athesists taking your arguement apart. You have absolutely no problem do the same to them. You say you have no problem, why not put yourself under the scrutiny that you put them under? A great example of this is every single post in this grand stands. Curt answers the whole time. I know I am not going to change your ways, maybe I am just an indication that you really should start.

Spartin

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Spartin
First off, thanks for taking the time to read and think about my post here. Personally, I think the god that created this whole thing did it according to the laws that are set down in the universe. It may be the fact that he/she/it set these laws down as a limitation for us to get a grip on the whole reality thing. We as humans have to categorize(hence the he/she/it), quantify everything that is around us. This falls into our limitations nicely. I think there will be a time in our evolution (part of the reason I don't believe in the bible) we will find out how god created this whole thing. It is at all possible that these are the confines to a smaller room in the greater existence that we must understand before we can grasp even further than that. In relation to the battle royale, we are but toddlers explaining a concept that University proffessors have a difficult time comprehending. We are not there and we won't be for many years.


To the end of your post you stated that you should fear god. I don't believe this is the case. I think it is a form of control over the masses. Would an all loving deity ask for you to fear him/her/it? That is simply illogical. Love on that greater level should not exisit with fear. To top it all off, fear makes the man act differently than he normally would. I want someone/thing to accept me for what I am. Not something I am conforming to. I am here to Do something, not Be something.


Spartin

Spartin,

Thanks for responding. Although I didn't agree with everything you wrote, I appreciate what you have to say.

I don't think it is illogical at all for a God or a human being to be loved and feared at the same time. Again, look at the role of the parent. You better believe that I feared my father growing up! But I loved and respected him to. I understood his authority and why it was ok for me to have a healthy fear of him. My own kids are the same way. Whenever I have to discipline them, which I never think to be too much fun, I can see a healthy dose of fear in their eyes. Do they hate me? Do they not love me? They don't hate me at all, and I know they still love me. Still, the fact that I am the hammer when it comes discipline will cause some healthy fear.

It's the same between God and man. He is the Dad and we are his children.

Sincerely,

SOTK

 

[Spartin]

I don't believe that is the fact. I live pretty much to the tenant of god. Not because I fear that I am going to rot in hell, I do it because I want to same thing back. I am not going to let fear ruling my actions, I am going to rule them. I want to be the best I can be on my own. Not what someone thinks/says I should be. I am sure the greater power would rather someone who is idividual instead of a follower. If it isn't the case, well I have already lost my place in Heaven according to Christians, so I am not losing anything anyways. Kinda sad really.



Spartin

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Spartin
You never say I think you are wrong. You state that they are wrong.

They are.

There is no ifs ands or buts in what you say.

Not usually, no.

You are acting according to what you think is absolute.

I'm acting according to what I know. Jesus is my best friend -- I know Him personally, but then I don't really expect you to understand that.

What others think is immeterial. You may not see it because you have been living this way for years, sadly to say; but that is the way you are.

I know how I am, and I'm not going to modify my posting style just because someone doesn't like it. If you don't like the way I argue, then don't argue with me, or simply put me on ignore. Problem solved.

I can quote you from numerous amounts of posts from this thread alone. You making statements of fact as opposed to opinion.

They are facts. You'll find out one day.

The only person in your life that is able to make statements of fact is God. Not one eyed Jack. Don't be condescending, be someone with a position.

I have a position, and I can make statements of fact all I want, thank you very much.

Next off why are you so concerned about Athesists taking your arguement apart.

I'm not.

You have absolutely no problem do the same to them.

This is a debate forum, you know. If you think you can take my arguments apart, then go for it.

You say you have no problem, why not put yourself under the scrutiny that you put them under?

Scrutinize all you want.

A great example of this is every single post in this grand stands. Curt answers the whole time.

So? Maybe that's all they merit.

I know I am not going to change your ways,

That's right -- you're not.

maybe I am just an indication that you really should start.

Says who?

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Spartin
I don't believe that the Jesus in the Bible lived. Legends/heroes are played up more than what they really are. He was an extrodinary person for sure but; I think he was made the focal point. Nothing more.

In other words, you do believe He existed -- you just don't believe the supernatural attributes that the Bible ascribes to Him. Does that about sum it up?

 

[Flake]

The "Legends/heroes" part sums it up as we generally only get the essence and subjective opinion, even political machination, about historical figures especially from such a long time ago. Wether he existed or not, he is not, and cannot, be here and so we can not and never will know the truth about this historical character. Even if he existed and managed to survive being crucified, it was a long time ago and we know that people simply dont live that long so we can rest assured in the assumption that this character is in fact dead. Unless of course you are suggesting that 2000 years ago was really a miracle filled time where you couldnt walk down the street without tripping over a miracle. Seems like it was a matter of course back then, miracles left right and center. How times change, unless you subscribe to Virgin Mary in Hospital Window style theology.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Flake
The "Legends/heroes" part sums it up as we generally only get the essence and subjective opinion, even political machination, about historical figures especially from such a long time ago.

Are you Spartin? If not, thanks for your opinion, but how about letting him speak for himself?

Wether he existed or not, he is not, and cannot, be here and so we can not and never will know the truth about this historical character.

You will on Judgement Day. Every knee will bend, and every mouth will confess -- and yours will be among them.

Even if he existed and managed to survive being crucified,

He didn't -- He was quite dead when they buried Him.

it was a long time ago and we know that people simply dont live that long so we can rest assured in the assumption that this character is in fact dead.

No -- He's alive. He was risen, and He lives forever.

Unless of course you are suggesting that 2000 years ago was really a miracle filled time where you couldnt walk down the street without tripping over a miracle.

I'm not suggesting that someone couldn't walk down the street without tripping over a miracle, but that doesn't mean that no miracles took place.

 

[Flake]

When is this "Judgement Day"? Looking at the calendar now and, nope, not there. Hope its not a Friday as I usually set that day aside for debauchery and profanities, and Ive got the dentist on Monday, the other days are pretty much free though so I suppose I could fit it in, unless of course its all a figment of your imagination.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Flake
When is this "Judgement Day"?

Only God knows when it's going to be, but you'll know when it happens.

 

[Flake]

Hold on, didnt Schwarzenegger make a film about it? You know, you shouldnt believe everything that appears to be factual, it was only a film. There may have been some truths in it but really, stop and think for a second, robot killers from the future? Supernatural vengfull creator superbeings? I mean, c'mon now, kinda stretches reason a tad dont ya think?

 

[ZroKewl]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I'm acting according to what I know. Jesus is my best friend -- I know Him personally, but then I don't really expect you to understand that.

Do you have any other best friends? I do too. And being best friends, I know things about them that nobody else does. We share on a personal level. We spend quality time together. We really know each other. We didn't just read about each other in a book... we spent time together.

I know... you think you and Jesus spend time together and know each other too, right? OK. Here are some questions that I can answer regarding my best friends. Can you answer them regarding Jesus:

What is his favorite ice cream flavor?
What's his favorite football team?
What does his laugh sound like?
Is he ticklish? What is his most ticklish spot?
How bad do his farts stink?
Does he like reality TV shows? Which one does he like the best?

I could go on, but you get the gist. How much do you really know Jesus? Do you know more about him than you do your other best friends (the ones that are flesh and blood on earth right now)?

These are just thought provoking questions (we'll see)... so you don't need to answer them -- unless you want to.

--ZK

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by ZroKewl
Do you have any other best friends?

No. Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, and my Master. I have other friends, but I love Him the most.

 

[avatar382]

Originally posted by SOTK4ever
Thanks. It does sound like I was more of a Deist. However, an Agnostic could also be defined as someone who is highly skeptical of God's existence but does not profess true atheism either. I think I felt like that at one point in time also.

Sincerely,

SOTK

Yeah, this is similair to my definition of agnostism, and refects my worldview.

Although I am skeptical of God's exisistance, I feel that claiming that there is absolutely no god in a broad sense is a pretty strong statement to make. I feel that there are things which we do not, and can never understand.

I like to think of it this way - imagine a WW2 plane crashes on a Pacific Island during the Battle of Midway, killing it's pilot, but the plane, although wrecked, stays somewhat intact. The local population of monkeys come upon the wreck. The monkeys will never understand what the wreck is, and will never be able to make the plane it fly again or even understand how it once worked. However, maybe they can detect that the wreck is something which is not a part of their natural enviroment.

Thus, we are monkeys, and the plane is symbolic of the questions we have of the universe and our origins. Will we ever understand the plane? Maybe, but I highly doubt it. I believe that man will always have questions about the universe. I am one of those that is ok with saying "I don't know."

 

[Flake]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
No. Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, and my Master. I have other friends, but I love Him the most.

Love for a master can never be sincere.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Flake
Love for a master can never be sincere.

It most certainly can. Love for two masters can never be sincere.

 

[Flake]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
It most certainly can. Love for two masters can never be sincere.

Sincere love can only exist where there is no corruption of the sincerity. Love of the lesser involves recognition of your superiority, corrupted by pity. Love of the greater involves recognition of its superiority, a master is such a thing. The latter is corrupted with forgiveness, qualification, aspiration, ambition and reassurance, and a recognition of your lesser status promoting envy. Hardly sincere.