Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

Status
Not open for further replies.

heusdens

New member
[/quote]

So let me investigate some of this "highly interesting stuff" on these links you provided for me.

Like I explained earlier, I have made a thread in the Religion & Science department, which is about providing sufficient counter arguments against the popular belief of a "begin of time", based on the three most common arguments:
1. The belief that the Big bang denotes the "begin of time"
2. The argument that a countable infinite or actual infinite is impossible, and therefore time must have a beginning.
3. The application of the laws of thermodynamics and in particular the second law beyond it's defined boundary, indicating that the universe as a supposed "closed" system would have already lost all it's usable energy, unless of course time had a beginning.

I have not finished this thread, so everything is still under development, but in a few days, I will provide sufficient arguments there

Now back to some of your material you provided.

What amazed me was this phrase on this link under the paragraph "Common objections against Christianity" which states:

Why Does the God of the Old Testament Seem So Cruel and Judgmental? - Didn't God order the killing of entire cities of "innocent" people. Let's look at those "innocent" people and see if you would like to have them as your neighbors!

It is striking! This text fragment indicates that there are neigbours, who contrary to the saying in the bible "love your neighbours like yourself", are not to be loved, but are to be condemned, and it is alright for God to erade complete neighbourhoods from the face of the earth!

So far for "absolute morality" and "absolute right and wrong" then. For "neighbours" fill in "jews", "homosexuals", "communists", etc. and you see the nazi's had no problem to base themselves on the Bible, and the Catholic church had no problem in collaborating with this biggest crime of mankind!

What needs to be said more?
 

heusdens

New member

From the webpage: Creation and Big Bang Cosmology (see above) the following text fragment: "But why think that such a cause exists at all? Very simply, the causal inference is based in the metaphysical intuition that something cannot come out of absolutely nothing. A pure potentiality cannot actualize itself. In the case of the universe (including any boundary points), there was not anything physically prior to the initial singularity.{4} The potentiality for the existence of the universe could not therefore have lain in itself, since it did not exist prior to the singularity. On the theistic hypothesis, the potentiality of the universe's existence lay in the power of God to create it. On the atheistic hypothesis, there did not even exist the potentiality for the existence of the universe. But then it seems inconceivable that the universe should become actual if there did not exist any potentiality for its existence. It seems to me therefore that a little reflection leads us to the conclusion that the origin of the universe had a cause."


So, this explain how the Theists make their arguments. Their counteragument against the metaphysical argument that something cannot come out of absolutely nothing, is to state that there was God. However the absolute nothing (as a pure concept of thought, and not being an actual state of the world) is defined in such a way, that it does not just denote the absence of any concept we have of anything physical, it denotes the fact that NOTHING (wether physical or not) whatsoever would exist. A TOTAL NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. NADA. NOPPES.
About this issue of God then, we can only make two assumptions. Either God exists or does not exist. In the case God exist, the absolute nothing would therefore not contain God. Hence, no creation 'out of nothing'.

A nothing, by its definition is a state in which there is not something that exists. It does therefore not permit us to introduce anything arbitrarily. So, if God exists, this means that the state of nothing, does not contain God or anything else that exists.

Does that proof that God does not exist? No, and that is of course not the point. The point is not wether or not God in reality exist, the point is that the existence fact of God must be either positevely or negatively admitted and stated. A state of total nothingness denotes that there is not anything existing, and in which by definition also God is not existing.
Once you state that God is existent, then you can not "from nothing" argue that there is a God which exist in the state of the world, which is defined as that there is not something existing. Doing so, would invalidate any form of language rules and reason. It would therefore be unreasonable.

Back to the question. Why is there something instead of nothing?
What we need to see is that the nature of the question would in fact dicate us to assume, that since we have to explain all of existence, can not hold ANYTHING as existing. So, this would indicate, that we could not in any possible way answer that question, since for any grounds to be made that could form a satisfactory explenation, we would need to make a statement in the form: "Because X is the case". But since we can not assume anything, there is no X that could form sufficient grounds.

But there is of course something, that becomes immediately clear here. We are not stating this question out of any reality, out of existence itself, but we are part of existence. We are consciouss, in the sense that to the very minimum we acknowledge the fact that we positively state that we exist.
This is some fixed indication that, while at first instance the question looks impossible to answer, there is a possibility of answering the question.
Since we can positevely state there is a world, which at least contains us and is formed and based on the fact that we positevely admit that we exist, we have sufficient grounds to answer the question.
We are not reasoning "out of nothing" or apart from or outside of reality itself, we are always reasoning from an existing reality, we know exists (only, in this phase, we might not have found out in what form, but that is another question).
For any consciouss being to exist (wether it be me, you, an alien or God) it would work the same. Consciousness is defined as self awareness, so this means we can positevely state we are there.
The question only has no meaning to something that has no concsiousness, and can not positevely state it's own existence. In that case the question is meaningless of course.

So what we know then is that:

  • [1] There is no possible way in which from nothing a something can emerge
    [2] There is a world. It at least contains me, my consciousness (I can state that I exist and witnes the world)
    [3] The world therefore must have existed for eternity

Although I can conclude, since it is inconceivable that there was a time in which the world was not, the world must have existed always, without a begin (and probably also without an end), I do not yet know as in what form the world has always existed.

Since from point 2 I can only conclude my own consciousness to exist, and in first instance do not yet know wether or not there is a real world outside, independend and apart from my consciousness (I could reason that only my mental perceptions about a real world exist, but not the real world itself), I can make two alternative hypothesis:


  • [1] The world has always existed in the form of my consciousness
    [2] The world has always existed in a form which is apart from, outside and independend of my consciousness

I have reason to assume that hypothesis 1 is not true. If that were the case then I would have been consciousness for an eternity, but my consciousness itself indicates that is not the case.

Therefore I have to assume that the world has always existed in a form which is apart from, outside and independend from my consciousness.
 
Last edited:

heusdens

New member
The Ultimate Question of Origins: God and the beginning of the universe

The Ultimate Question of Origins: God and the beginning of the universe

From the webpage: The Ultimate Question of Origins:
God and the Beginning of the Universe



"The problem with saying that the Big Bang is an event without a cause is that it entails that the universe came into being uncaused out of nothing, which seems metaphysically absurd. Philosopher of science Bernulf Kanitscheider remonstrates, "If taken seriously, the initial singularity is in head-on collision with the most successful ontological commitment that was a guiding line of research since Epicurus and Lucretius," namely, out of nothing nothing comes, which Kanitscheider calls "a metaphysical hypothesis which has proved so fruitful in every corner of science that we are surely well-advised to try as hard as we can to eschew processes of absolute origin."{56} But if the universe began to exist, we are therefore driven to the second alternative: a supernatural agency beyond space and time."

So far not any physical or cosmological theory has come up that in fact DID say that there was a begin of time. Even the thesis of Stephen Hawking HAS to assume at some point that time (wether it "real" time or "imaginary" time) has no begin.
And how could time have a begin?
The way we witness the world to be, some fundamental principles are tested over and over again. Our laws of causality just descibe that and reflect that. It is of course a peculiar thing to ask a question like "where did causality come from". Since the nature of the question makes it clear that no real answer can be given. Outside of causality, there is no causality, so no "causes" for causality can be given.
All answers to this questions, however, do not lead to God, but to the acknowledgement that time neither as causality have a beginning.
Sience, wherever it will lead us, will always be confronted with the fact that we can not trace down the eternal causality chain beyond a specific point. It does not matter where that point is, wether it be hundred years ago, 1 million years ago, 4 billion years ago, 14 billion years ago, 14 trillion years ago or whaetever imaginary larger amount of time ago, there will always be a point in time about we won't know anything about what happened before.
Does it make sense then to state that before such an arbitrary point in time, there was no world, or we have to assume divine interactions?
No, of course not. The absence of any real knowledge of what factual was the state of the world before an arbitrary point in time, does not make it reasonable to say that we could as well think the world would not exist then. It's of course obvious that we like to know, no matter how long ago, what factually went on in the history of the universe, but we will always have an observational horizon beyond which we can not say anything meaningfull about the state of the world. Despite this: the world was always existing, changing, developing and in motion. There was never a time in which the world was not, and time did not have a beginning, neither does causality.
As a fact of life we have to accept that we will always only be able to know a finite part of our history. Same as we will always be confronted with the fact that a human life is finite.
That's life. And no way to change that. We have to deal with it!
 

LightSon

New member
Originally posted by heusdens
I have not seen any ape or lion testify that they have such moral codes from God, or have any awareness about God.
Which makes your story a phantasy.

So you are waiting for animal testimony to validate God or God-based morals? Interesting standard of proof. :nono:

Your reasoning ability is waning heusdens. Did you sleep well last night?
 

heusdens

New member
Originally posted by LightSon
So you are waiting for animal testimony to validate God or God-based morals? Interesting standard of proof. :nono:

Your reasoning ability is waning heusdens. Did you sleep well last night?

No in fact I am waiting for the theists to explain to us - who want to know this - how it can be that animal societies do seem to have moral codes, without them having any awareness of God.

Perhaps there are animal Gods, which we humans do not know about?
 
Last edited:

JanowJ

New member
Another Zakath non-point.

Another Zakath non-point.

Zakath's latest post declared this evidence for atheism:


The Argument from Confusion (AC)

This argument, a little more complicated than the previous Argument from Non-Belief (ANB), consists of four premises:
1. Christians are confused in that:


A. They disagree with one another about a variety of important doctrinal issues including the nature of God, God's Law (e.g. which kinds of killing are acceptable within the law), the role of sacraments, requirements for salvation, role of Church hierarchy, the place of the Jew and the nation of Israel, the sequence of end-time events, and the status of the Bible, to name a few.

B. The Bible contradicts itself on these doctrinal matters, is exceedingly unclear in many important areas, and contains errors which make it appear to be merely manmade work.

C. Different copies of the Hebrew and Greek biblical manuscripts say conflicting things. Even the biblical canon involves disputes and appears to be arbitrary.

D. There is no objective procedure for settling any of these many disputes, especially since the original manuscripts of the Bible have been lost, there is no public declaration from God that would resolve any of them.


2. If God were to exist, then he would love all Christians and want that love reciprocated. He would also strongly desire that, here on earth, Christians become aware of, and be clear about those aspects of his nature and system of governance that have importance to their lives.

3. Hence, if god were to exist, then he would prevent Christians from becoming confused in their beliefs about his nature and system of governance in ways that have importance to their lives and that interfere with them coming to love him.

4. But Christians have not been prevented from becoming confused in those ways. The forms of disagreement mentioned in premise (1), above, are examples.

Therefore, God does not exist.


First of all, if confusion and lack of agreement was a basis for disproving something, evolution and natural selection would be the first to go. The saying "the only thing that evolves in evolution is evolution theory" is true. Just read 2 different editions of Nature Magazine. So, confusion doesn't mean something isn't true.

Of course, the Bible addressed this question many times. Satan is called "the deceiver," "the author of confusion" and "the father of lies." The Bible repeats many times to believers the phrase "do not be decieved" and emplores believers to "search the Scriptures" and "test the spirits." Thus, the Bible warns that confusion is out there. Jesus said many times as well that "many will come in my name and deceive many."

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. God is a gentleman who does not force Himself on those who don't want Him. He wants us to seek Him. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God..." and "The Kingdom is like a man searching for a pearl of great price...." The Bible also teaches that the truth is hidden from those of disobedience. For God "opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." And, to top it all off, the Bible also teaches that... "for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

And there you have it. Once again, Zakath made a non-point. The only thing that I don't understand about Zakath is hy, if science and evolution prove atheism, why won't he debate science? He seems to want to avoid this topic as much as possible. Perhaps he is confused about science. Of course, since there is confusion among scientists, perhaps science doesn't exist either. :)
 

ZroKewl

BANNED
Banned
Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by JanowJ
First of all, if confusion and lack of agreement was a basis for disproving something, evolution and natural selection would be the first to go.
There are no omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent evolution and natural selection deities. Therefore, premises 2 & 3 of Zakath's proof do not apply.

--ZK
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by JanowJ
First of all, if confusion and lack of agreement was a basis for disproving something, evolution and natural selection would be the first to go.
But (most) scientists do not claim to be either infallible or omniscient. Science is designed to change as new evidence and information becomes available. Theism, generally, is not.

BTW, JanowJ, how many gods do you believe exist?
 

heusdens

New member
An argument against creation

An argument against creation

An argument against creation

Why is it that the whole course of history of both:
- mankind and his society
- the living (organic) world
- the non-living (anorganic) world

show only gradual evolution, and perhaps some revolutionary steps, but nevertheless things form and develop on gradual basis and in small steps.
Not only do we need to answer why this is indeed the case, but also should we explore if it could have been different. Wouldn't it have been possible to built a world from scratch, an already complete and formed world at once?

The fact that it is not the case, and that in an evolutionary ways things tend to develop, is not just attributed to the facts about the macro cosmos, the solar system and planet earth, the evolution of life, the evolution of man and society, can be shown to have relevance in every aspect of life and the world.

Take for instance man's invention. Although we think of these as 'creations' in which design is the principle driving force, we could then wonder why would it not have been possible, since we know the creative and intelectual power of man is not much different now then it was 10.000 years ago, that the early man built for instance cars, computers, rockets, airplanes, and all that.

If, as theist assume, the only possible explenation for why the world is like it is now, is that 'creation' took place, then why was it impossible for the primitive man to create computers, cars, rockets, airplanes, etc.

What is wrong with the idea of creation, that such seems inconceivable?
 

JanowJ

New member
Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Since the questions are similar:
Originally posted by ZroKewl
There are no omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent evolution and natural selection deities. Therefore, premises 2 & 3 of Zakath's proof do not apply.
--ZK
Originally posted by Zakath
But (most) scientists do not claim to be either infallible or omniscient. Science is designed to change as new evidence and information becomes available. Theism, generally, is not.

BTW, JanowJ, how many gods do you believe exist?

The point is this: man is fallible (as are scientists). Could your evolutionary scientists be wrong in their interpretation of evidence?
And yes, Theism can change with evidence. Once I was shown the evidence that I am a sinful man who fell short of God's glory, I repented of my ways and acknowledged Him. My beliefs changed as I was shown the truth of who I was and the truth of who God was. Your problem is you refuse to acknowledge any standard above yourself. Thus, you have replaced God with yourself (just as Romans 1 in the Bible explained).

Finally, consider this: every culture in the world has a story about a global flood. Although details differ, the basic outlines are the same. With this much agreement about a global flood (not the details, just the flood), is this not evidence that a global flood of some sort did occur? There is more agreement on this then there is among scientists about evolution. Could all of those stories be wrong?
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
Originally posted by Spartin
Look, it is one of the fanboys that thinks it is over before it has started. Why not just point out the misconception by Zak and leave the cheering off to the side. This is a place to discuss, not say your high school football team rules.


Spartin
Hello Mr. Hypocrite!

The truth is Zakath either made an error which he should apologize for.... or he is just flat out lying.

If Bob had made an error such as this you would be all over him.

So... do you think its OK to claim your opponent didn't say something when he clearly did? And furthermore... Zakath insinuated that Bob might have had ulterior motives for doing so!

Obviously this just proves Bob even more correct when he wrote in his VERY FIRST post...
For example, is it absolutely wrong to drag a living black man behind a pickup truck to tear apart his body out of white supremacist motives? If you answer no, and that there is no such thing as absolute morality, then I will despise your character, and record more evidence that atheism undermines morality. But I will continue the debate realizing that you would not believe it wrong for you to lie in an effort to win this Battle Royale.
 

ZroKewl

BANNED
Banned
Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by JanowJ
The point is this: man is fallible (as are scientists). Could your evolutionary scientists be wrong in their interpretation of evidence?
Yes.

And yes, Theism can change with evidence.
... I think Theism does indeed change. Albeit, much more slowly than the rest of the world. Theists are usually just a tad behind until someone can "apologize" for their misunderstandings of God's Inerrant Word and show how it was right all along.

--ZK
 

LightSon

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by ZroKewl
... I think Theism does indeed change. Albeit, much more slowly than the rest of the world. Theists are usually just a tad behind until someone can "apologize" for their misunderstandings of God's Inerrant Word and show how it was right all along.

Yep.
"...let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings"
 

JanowJ

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by ZroKewl
Yes.


... I think Theism does indeed change. Albeit, much more slowly than the rest of the world. Theists are usually just a tad behind until someone can "apologize" for their misunderstandings of God's Inerrant Word and show how it was right all along.

--ZK

Theism and people's knowledge can change. God's righteous standard (like the laws of the universe) do not. Man doesn't make or change the physical laws, but he can discover them and understand. Once again, the Bible states this quite clearly. Just read Job chapter 38. Or consider this verse from 1 Corinthians 13: 8-10:
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."
Again, the Bible is clear that man can only know in part. Man's knowledge is limited. That includes the evolutionary scientists. Thus, their research is suspect as well. For there are only two things they agree on: 1) That they don't know how the universe began. and 2) That it couldn't have been the God of the Bible.
Once again, that's not science. That's putting their pre-conceived notions at the start of their research and then searching for proof of their pre-conceived notions. If only they would be so honest, they might find some credibility.
 

heusdens

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by JanowJ
Theism and people's knowledge can change. God's righteous standard (like the laws of the universe) do not. Man doesn't make or change the physical laws, but he can discover them and understand. Once again, the Bible states this quite clearly. Just read Job chapter 38. Or consider this verse from 1 Corinthians 13: 8-10:
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."
Again, the Bible is clear that man can only know in part. Man's knowledge is limited. That includes the evolutionary scientists. Thus, their research is suspect as well. For there are only two things they agree on: 1) That they don't know how the universe began. and 2) That it couldn't have been the God of the Bible.
Once again, that's not science. That's putting their pre-conceived notions at the start of their research and then searching for proof of their pre-conceived notions. If only they would be so honest, they might find some credibility.

If would not state it like that "science does not know how the universe began". It seems to imply the universe is in need of some sort of beginning. But this is exactly the point in which materialistic science differs with theism. Theism claims to KNOW that the universe began. Science can just claim that there is no begin to time, but even so, we can not say something meaningfull about the state of the world, of which we don't have any real knowledge.
As to this, science can positively claim that the world, no matter how long ago, existed, but has as yet no clue as in what form the world existed, let's say a trillion years ago. In fact the Big Bang itself is a horizon to any observable facts (more precisely, the 'oldest' thing we see in the cosmos is the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, which formed 300.000 years after the Big Bang), we can maybe go back some more using all of our theoretical skills, but at some point we can just say we don't know. We have learned not to pretend we know something when in fact we don't. Man's inituition has proven to have failed in many occasions. Of that of which one can not speak, one should keep silence.
 
Last edited:

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Re: Re: Re: Another Zakath non-point.

Originally posted by JanowJ
The point is this: man is fallible (as are scientists). Could your evolutionary scientists be wrong in their interpretation of evidence?
Possibly, sure.

Being human, scientists are probably about as likely as theologians to admit to incorrect interpretation of their evidence during their lifetimes.

The largest difference is thatWhen someone stubbornly refuses to change with the times in science, their funding dries up and they're out of business. This is quite unlike theology where someone can found a new sect at will, and if they can convince enough people to support it, live very comfortably.

And yes, Theism can change with evidence. Once I was shown the evidence that I am a sinful man who fell short of God's glory, I repented of my ways and acknowledged Him. My beliefs changed as I was shown the truth of who I was and the truth of who God was.
I don't know you personally, but I would say, based on my past experience in evangelism, that many people are "shown truth" without making any kind of change at all. Some folks take years to change, others never do...

Your problem is you refuse to acknowledge any standard above yourself.
While it may be convenient for you to think things are that simple, it's not quite that way. I take ultimate responsibility for my own decisions. But I draw on what I consider to be the best from a number of standards outside myself.

Finally, consider this: every culture in the world has a story about a global flood.
While there are many flood myths, I don't recall that it is true that they are universal or that many of them describe global floods. IIRC, the flood myth is only found in cultures that had settlements near lakes, large rivers, or seasides. Since all of these water sources flood periodically (and sometimes unpredictably) with the concomitant damage and loss of life, ancient people sought explanations. Since they could not come up with a natural one, a supernatural one was devised to fill the gap until science developed a natural explanation.

With this much agreement about a global flood (not the details, just the flood), is this not evidence that a global flood of some sort did occur?
This is a very weak argument based on a logical fallacy called argumentum ad numerum in which you assert that the more people believe something, no matter how outlandish, the more likely it is to be true. Remember that until the late 19th century, most people believed that malaria was caused by bad air. Centuries of improper belief did not change the reality that malaria is caused by a mosquito carried protozoan, not the air.

... Could all of those stories be wrong?
Certainly. More people disbelieve Christianity than believe it, could all those e people be wrong? ;)
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by novice
The truth is Zakath either made an error which he should apologize for.... or he is just flat out lying.

So... do you think its OK to claim your opponent didn't say something when he clearly did? And furthermore... Zakath insinuated that Bob might have had ulterior motives for doing so!

Obviously this just proves Bob even more correct when he wrote in his VERY FIRST post...
Bob B figured out exactly what the problem was. Enyart generated text that was allegedly a quote. I searched for that text in his posts and found it wasn't there. So he didn't clearly state that his absolute standard of right and wrong was his deity until post five. Get over it, Novice. :rolleyes:

If he beats around the bush instead of answering questions directly, then he runs the risk of people taking him at his word and/or misunderstanding him.

I think St. Bob the Broadcaster, as a professional communicator, has motives for everything he writes in a staged debate like this. That's why there is so much obfuscation. I particularly like your hero's plan to refuse to address any new arguments I present until I can no longer rebut them... :)
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
Zakath, you still haven't said if you are going to retract and apologize for your mischaracterization and your error about Bob NOT saying what he did in fact say.

It was such a major part of the post I think you owe a bit of an explanation.

Please enlighten.
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
Originally posted by Zakath
Bob B figured out exactly what the problem was. Enyart generated text that was allegedly a quote. I searched for that text in his posts and found it wasn't there. So he didn't clearly state that his absolute standard of right and wrong was his deity until post five. Get over it, Novice. :rolleyes:

If he beats around the bush instead of answering questions directly, then he runs the risk of people taking him at his word and/or misunderstanding him.

I think St. Bob the Broadcaster, as a professional communicator, has motives for everything he writes in a staged debate like this. That's why there is so much obfuscation. I particularly like your hero's plan to refuse to address any new arguments I present until I can no longer rebut them... :)
It was your error NOT Bob's.

I think you should offer up a public apology.

Don't you?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
First of all, I owe you precisely nothing. :)

I have already explained that it was not a mischaracterization. About what should I apologize?

You remind me of the faithful church members who cannot see their pastor's humanity when he's caught having an affair with the secretary... "touch not the Lord's anointed"...

Enyart miscommunicated. I pointed it out. Get over it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top