Atheists, do you hope you're right?

[serpentdove]

That would depend on the evidence and jury ...

"So that's supposed to be a jury of my peers?" :shocked: ~ Carl Lee, A Time to Kill

 

[MichaelCadry]

Well, first of all, as an atheist, I simply have not been convinced to believe in any god. That doesn't mean that I am claiming that gods do not in fact exist. How should I know? For all I know, there could be hundreds out there! I just have not had any personal experience of any god or have seen any convincing evidence yet to believe in any particular god.

I don't know about you, but my beliefs are the result of being convinced (by evidence/experience) of something's truth. I cannot choose to believe in the existence of something based on fear, or even based on my wants/desires. Heck, there are some things that I believe in that I would rather not believe, but have no choice based on the overwhelming evidence.

Even if someone were to offer me 10 million dollars to believe that I was a porcupine, for example, I couldn't make myself actually believe. Would I want to believe it? Heck yeah! Could I “try” to believe? Yes! Could I pretend to believe it? Sure! But would I actually believe it? No. Like I said before, wanting to believe something does not change the fact that I do not actually believe it.

Believing that something exists should be independent of whether or not that belief could give you comfort or fulfill a desire. Either you are convinced by evidence that a particular god exists, or you are not convinced and you remain without belief (as a non-believer; atheist) until such time as you are provided with such. For instance, if I was convinced by evidence that a two headed tyrant god existed, I would have no choice but to believe that it existed, period....regardless of how much I hoped that it did not.

Dear flintstoned,

How are you doing? I have a lot of love inside and it's due to my God. I am an unusual case. There's a reason for it that you probably won't believe, so we'll have to discuss that another time. Let's just suffice it that I have been visited by the Lord God twice, I've had a number of angelic visits and visions/out-of-body experiences, and been visited by the Holy Ghost twice.

One night, the Lord told me to go to NYC after a vision I'd had about CA having all of their brush fires. I won't go into it. Nevertheless, there were two angel visits in that vision alone. Remind me to tell you about it later. What I'm leading up to saying is that, I was working at ABC-TV in Manhattan, NYC on Avenue of the Americas. I was working in the Accounting Dept. and was an assistant of one of the Comptrollers there. I sent a letter to a New York Daily News reporter about some of the things I'd experienced from God. He sent me a letter back saying he did not see a story in what I'd sent him. I was near furious. I asked God what to do. The Lord said to write this reporter back and tell him that I (God) shall send 7 inches of snow upon his Daily News Bldg. within 48 hours of him receiving my letter, so that he would know that God was with me and the testimony that I was sharing with him was true.

Well, it wasn't long, the snow began falling the morning that the reporter received my letter. All day it snowed and after work, at the end of the day, 7 inches had fallen and the snow ceased. I got home from work and my girl friend said, "Michael, Michael, some reporter's been calling you all day and wants you to call him back ASAP." Well, I went to go dial the number and the phone rang. It was the reporter and he was terrified and said to not pray to God for him anymore and what did I want. I asked for a 3-hour interview. I got it within a couple days. After sharing my testimony about my experiences with him, he still said he could not help me because it wasn't his newspaper. Talk about daft. He said I would have to talk to his boss, the publisher's boss. I declined to go that route because I would have had to talk to the highest echelons of the Daily News and I did not want to.

The next day, a newspaper article in the rival newspaper had a front page article on the snow, that it was 7 inches. I have a copy of my letter to the reporter, and a copy of the news article that said the 7 inches had fallen. I can send you a copy of each, and other things besides that (more Proof Pages) and an autographed copy of my book. It will cost me $15 roughly, but for you, I will do it for Free. Just PM me and let me know your mailing address. That experience is just the very tip of the iceberg. I've had many things happen to me that have been astounding. It has been a life. The Lord told me that I was one of two witnesses written of in Rev. 11:3KJV. I would love to know who the other one is, but He won't tell me. I've tried up and down, and sideways, to get my testimony into the newspapers, but none will help. So, the people of the world will not get much of a warning about Armageddon as they deserve. That is how this world works. I believe Armageddon will be this Autumn. Are you ready??

Okay, this is long. I've got to close. Tons of things I could explain to you but probably never in such detail. For that, I would have to live with you and talk with you every day for a week, at least. Of course, we know, that's not going to happen. I'm in Phoenix now, and was sent here once again by the Lord. I wanted to go to Miami, FL., but I did not get my wish. Listen, I'd best close for now. God Be With You and remember, there is proof out there. You just don't accept it or know where to look for it, eh? Tell me which?

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

:angel: :angel: :cloud9: :rapture:

 

[noguru]

:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). each:

Re 20:6

:yawn:
I'm not concerned about your approval. In fact the only thing that matters is my relationship with Him.

Your continued misuse of scripture is not evidence that you are any judge of such issues.

Your continued confusion about things that are quite clear to rational people is enough evidence to realize your observational skills are not sufficient.

Oh and now we are going to hear how "I am crazy for Jesus." How utterly convenient to avoid your own errors in perception.

 

[noguru]

I've known a few atheists is why i asked.


everready

I still know quite a few. In fact I debate (not during work hours of course) the ones in my professional life occasionally. It usually ends up being an agree to disagree/friendly exit from the argument. I can certainly see things from their perspective, which is more than I can say for most people who claim to be Christian. And they do not try to claim that "You never were an atheist" or any of the non sense I get from some so called Christians.

I am just being honest here. And there is no need to take this as an endorsement of atheism, and/or a way of denouncing my faith.

 

[Hedshaker]

So with our logic we see cause and effect which would go on for infinity as you say, which then off course breaks down cause and effect to one uncaused phenomena. God.

Well, you could start off by pointing out where I said, "we see cause and effect go on for infinity". I neither said nor implied any such thing, only that the notion of infinity may well be more than we understand.

Also, you're engaging in bald claims again. Got any evidence for any of that God stuff? Cause if you don't then you can not lay claim to the existence of any creator god, let alone one in particular, that just happens, by shear luck, to be the one you already believe in. Let's face it, all this "one uncaused cause" blurb is nothing more than the same tired old apologetics we've all heard a thousand times before. Give it a rest. No one knows anything about pre Big Bang existence including the most advanced scientific minds on this planet, let alone a few heavily biased theologians. Have the grace to admit you don't know when you don't actually know.

Who is beyond all that we can experience and may in fact as some physicists guess lie in another dimension beyond our perception.

You mean like never never land? I have never much cared for heaven or hell but clearly, cloud cuckoo land exists right here on Earth.

 

[alwight]

Ah. What I believe is that the benefits of belief are superior to holding a contrary view and that there being no empirical and objective means to settle the issue, embracing a want in that particular runs contrary to reason and your own good. It is to begin with an argument from utility and an appeal to the choice that best serves our being.

It seems rather strange to me anyway that anyone could have an actual one to one relationship with a godly being that seems so depended so much on one's own needs and desires, rather than in that being having a completely separate identity. It seems more about what goes on in the individual own mind than anything based on a more factual reality that we can all observe. Which is perhaps why there is never likely to be a religious consensus anytime soon?

At the very least faith is an enormous, positive and extended middle finger to the alternative and a rational, real possibility of more. I'm deadly disinterested in the coy fumbling of "Which?" because at the very least that which is answered by, "Your highest and best estimation of God."

A typical atheist anyway doesn't need to be concerned with estimations of God of course, which, but for the absence of a more testable or demonstrable reality, remain imo personal and subjective and perhaps fashioned to some degree by the individual to suit themselves.

Now many of my brethren will find that objectionable. I don't care. No one learns the joy of running by beginning with a marathon. M. Scott Peck began his spiritual quest as an atheist, then a Buddhist and finally a Christian.

If life is a journey then some of us will no doubt often change our minds along the way based on different times perceptions and circumstances. Where that might leave us in a search for an ultimate truth I wouldn't like to say.

When the negative which is no more or less certain than the better context a reasonable man chooses the better context. If we accept defeatism, nihilism, a pointless, happenstance existence then and only then do we have no reason to be here.

Sadly however we don't get to choose our own reality, we have to deal with what we got. I think that trying to believe it is something else may help some to function more smoothly but personally that doesn't really work for me.

Atheists aren't typically attracted to nihilism or godlessness, atheism is merely a conclusion of disbelief made from a perceived lack of godly evidence. An atheist's position is typically provisional until something changes that perception.

In my less than narrow experience that often isn't the case. It's frequently as not rooted in a demand that is by its nature an impossibility, not because the thing considered is impossible, but because the request is.

Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning, hope and a blueprint, so who in their right mind would ever choose atheism, all things being equal, when your local friendly religious belief can take away all the pain and worry for you? :think:
Unless the actual hard truth, warts and all, has some value maybe?

Maybe, at the heart of it, what an atheist really hopes for is a miracle.

All I need is a Miracle

 

[noguru]

All I need is a Miracle

I like the way The Grateful Dead deliver that sentiment.

I Need A Miracle

 

[noguru]

Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning, hope and a blueprint, so who in their right mind would ever choose atheism, all things being equal, when your local friendly religious belief can take away all the pain and worry for you? :think:
Unless the actual hard truth, warts and all, has some value maybe?

I have never understood why some religious folk have a distrust for science, or greater intellect for that matter.

Everything is easy once you have learned the proper methodology.

Till things we have never seen will seem familiar.

Perhaps it is contempt prior to investigation. Perhaps it is fear of discovering certain aspects of one's own inner character. Perhaps it is a little of both.

At any rate the Bible is quite clear about this, though many Christians cannot admit the truth of these words.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And it might be that once a thing is known that it no longer requires faith. Yet there will always be things unknown to the finite fallible human mind. My problem with some of the faithful is that they very often sacrifice what can be known for what they, through a hazy predetermination of value, originally desired. They are often guilty of sacrificing accuracy for the illusion of absolute certainty from the very beginning. Rather than being honest and courageous in admitting their doubt and level of certainty.

 

[chrysostom]

Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning,

do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?

 

[noguru]

do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?

I am thinking that anyone who holds an opinion, believes that opinion to be "reasonable". Of course that is in the realm of subjective perspective. The real question is how closely that "subjective perspective" translates into the objective reality.

 

[chrysostom]

I am thinking that anyone who holds an opinion, believes that opinion to be "reasonable". Of course that is in the realm of subjective perspective. The real question is how closely that "subjective perspective" translates into the objective reality.

your question is not reasonable
and
explains nothing

 

[noguru]

your question is not reasonable
and
explains nothing

It's not a question. It was a rhetorical question, which is really an investigative statement. Perhaps that is why you are not seeing the reasoning there.

Are you being as reasonable as is humanly possible?

Now that is a question. Probably the most important question you can answer for yourself each and every day.

Just a curiosity, but what confuses you about "subjective perspective" and "objective reality", would you like me to elaborate?

 

[chrysostom]

It's not a question. It was a rhetorical question, which is really an investigative statement. Perhaps that is why you are not seeing the reasoning there.

Are you being as reasonable as is humanly possible?

Now that is a question. Probably the most important question you can answer for yourself each and every day.

Just a curiosity, but what confuses you about "subjective perspective" and "objective reality", would you like me to elaborate?

I can see you are having fun putting words together
and
I will always be happy to answer a reasonable question

 

[noguru]

I can see you are having fun putting words together
and
I will always be happy to answer a reasonable question

Words mean things. The meaning of the words I have chosen is quite clear. If you are confused, or find some inadequacy in their formulation you could try to add to a productive discourse by pinpointing your objections.

So if you are certain that is unreasonable you would be able to be more specific as to why it is unreasonable. The fact that you do not even try, means you are not trying to be reasonable.

But as I have pointed out earlier this seems to be the MO of people who often sacrifice accuracy for an illusion of certainty. And in the end you only do yourself a disservice. Be well my friend.

 

[chrysostom]

people who often sacrifice accuracy for an illusion of certainty.

now that is a good one
you like the word certain
you used it twice
but
seems only to be applied to me
I don't use that word, I am never certain
but
I do have reasonable expectations when it comes to what I think and believe
I do use and like the word illusion
but
I am careful how I use it
illusions can and should be reasonable

 

[MrDeets]

You hope all of the time. When you get on an airplane you hope that the pilot is not going to dive bomb your plane into a mountain.

"Hope is the last thing a person does before they're defeated" -Henry Rollins I DO NOT hope. I know, from my experience on past flights, that it is unlikely. I know, due to the statistics carried by the FAA, that it is unlikely. I know the amount of testing and scrutiny my Uncle(who has been a commercial and private pilot for 20+ years) goes through to keep his license. I know, that there are no mountains between DFW and Houston, and since that's really the only flying I'll be doing, I'm definitely not hoping on that account.

Everyone has faith. :dizzy: You are your own god or God is your God (Ps. 73:6).

How uncharacteristicallyPlain assumptive of you. :rotfl:

Internal testimony (Ro 2:15), external testimony (Ps 19:1) and the scriptures (Jas 1:18). You are without excuse (Ro 1:20).

"I have seen your heart and it is mine." -Voldemort, Deathly Hallows. I can quote random stuff from books too. Is it authoritative?

Not asking if you believe. We know you do not believe. Asking do you hope you are right. :freak:

I don't have hope in any regard when it comes to your book. I don't hope I'm right. I have no need for hope.

You can say that you refuse to answer the question. :chz4brnz:

No need. I've answered.

 

[alwight]

do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?

No.
Other than perhaps that "chance" might be as reasonable a suggestion as any.

 

[noguru]

now that is a good one
you like the word certain
you used it twice
but
seems only to be applied to me
I don't use that word, I am never certain
but
I do have reasonable expectations when it comes to what I think and believe
I do use and like the word illusion
but
I am careful how I use it
illusions can and should be reasonable

Thanks.

 

[serpentdove]

"I'm not concerned about your approval."

Why would you be? Jn 13:15 :juggle:

"In fact the only thing that matters is my relationship with Him."

Your daddy? :Shimei: Jn 8:44

"Your continued misuse of scripture..."

:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). each:

"...is not evidence that you are any judge of such issues."

Titus 2:15

"Your continued confusion about things..."

:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). each:

"...[A]are quite clear to rational people..."

:yawn: 2 Ti 1:7

"...[Y]our observational skills are not sufficient."

:yawn: Eph. 1:18

"Oh and now we are going to hear how "I am crazy for Jesus.""

Pr 26:4 :juggle:

"How utterly convenient to avoid your own errors in perception."

How Convenient

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

No, you could also lose if you have chosen the wrong God, of which there are many, all of whom are claimed to be the one true God by their followers. And the only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god than you. This isn't rocket science.



They are prepared to lay down their lives for their beliefs, as are many others, which is exactly the same regardless of who is making the claims. You have no sound evidence for the veracity of truth claims made by ancient anonymous authors but that you chose one faith belief over another.



And yet we do not see them converting in droves, do we? They are theists just like you yet they choose to edge their bets on mutually exclusive faith stories. If you take issue with the finer points involved you should take it up with them because I don't buy any of it. What you need to understand James is that proselytising, preaching and apologetics is for bolstering the confirmation bias of theists, not sceptics and atheists. I've already heard it all before, many times and I'm no more convinced now than ever I was.

If you sincerely seek the Truth Tm then what could possibly be wrong with taking a critical study of what you believe? And from sources outside of the Christian Apologetics fraternity. Start with the history of your religion and seek genuine (or as near as possible) contemporary, historical evidence to back up the stories that you now hold dear. Did someone really come back to life after being clinically dead for three days? Did someone really go around performing miracles all over the place? Did someone really do a gravity defying walk on water, feed 5000 people on a fish sandwich? Try to dig out neutral sources, or as near as you can get. Not all Biblical criticism is atheistic propoganda.

Was there really any eye witnesses to these events or did someone simply embellish the stories over time through word of mouth? Chinese whispers!. We both know there are no original Bible writings but surly, if it's all true, there must be some contemporary evidence.

And remember, this is not about bolstering existing cherished beliefs, it is a search for truth, no matter what. You are seeking extra biblical evidence :up:

If you already have the Truth then there is nothing to fear, right?

It's up to you of course but for me the truth is way more important than anything I believe, or disbelieve. I am more than willing to investigate sound, falsifiable evidence. But as for proselytising, preaching and apologetics..... don't waste you breath on those if you wish to engage educated sceptics.

Cheers :up:

Good luck.

Do you discount what Christ has done personally for many alive today? I have zero doubts about what the truth is.

You agreed we have a moral compass. Mine told me I was not good. It told me evil exists and was all around. And through my life until I was 33 I ignored the good leadings in my heart all too often. My shame weighing me down like a lead anvil at the bottom of the sea. At the same time lonliness, despair of life was flat out depressing! And through my thought that I should be able to fully understand God and why He did everything and How on my own accord with science and my own mind left me doing nothing but chasing my tail. Round and round and round I went....
And How He broke through to my heart was Him saying to me... "You know evil is real so stop ignoring that goodness is real, that I am real. Stop ignoring me. And BTW if you think you will ever figure everything out about me, that thought, your pride will only keep you from me."

He convinced me to take a step in trust, in faith. He did not disappoint. The burdens of shame were gone, I felt His love that nothing or noone can compare too. His Spiritual good presence can not be described in words, nothing could ever compare.

I do not discount science. I see how it backs up His existence. But science can not go to His realm quite possibly in another dimension pyscicists have hypothesized about, but none the less beyond this universe and yet the power that is every atom that holds every atom together. Science will not disprove or prove. Our hearts do. His presence does. I know He is true. I have experienced Him. You can call me whatever you like. But I am unequivocally testifying to the truth!

What other possible good reason could a God create life for other than personal relational Fatherly love. That is what God's word says He is; love. Many can testify to that truth.