ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[glorydaz]

I did and you are still missing the "whole"context of Genesis 3 and what follows as far as sacrifice and the condition of the WHOLE human race.

FYI, I do not have to ignore the context to stay in an error as do many.

I can see that. You stay in an error even when the context is put right in front of your eyes.

 

[glorydaz]

I see you believe the "apple of God's eye" is not credible.

You discredit and ignore what is literal for what wasn't literal ! Got ya.

It's poetic license just as speaking evil from his mother's womb.:yawn:

 

[oatmeal]

Only One is GOOD. We are not God. To say that we have a "sin nature" and then gloss over that Adam and Eve represent "Pristine" nature, but yielded to the Devil's wiles shows that only God can be challenged in any possible way and ARISE Sinless without a single stumble or fall.

God, alone, is GOOD.

He said so HIMSELF. Good teacher... "Why do you call Me GOOD... Only GOD is GOOD."

Yes. Adam and Eve were clean until they sinned. God gave them the ability to choose, ie, free will, to paraphrase a movie quote, "they chose poorly"

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes. Adam and Eve were clean until they sinned. God gave them the ability to choose, ie, free will, to paraphrase a movie quote, "they chose poorly"

Hit the breaks... I'm grabbing my fedora hat and bull whip!

Rock N Roll Oatmeal... Rock N Roll!

I will only add this... "All but ONE" chooses "poorly". Thus we are all in need of that ONE.

 

[oatmeal]

The human nature God created us with is susceptible to the lusts of the flesh, because we have a physical body. We have eyes with which we see, so we are susceptible to the lusts of the eyes. We have an intellect and self-awareness, so we are susceptible to the pride of life. We choose to follow those lusts because we have free will, and discover by fulfilling those lusts we can satisfy our immediate desires.

That doesn't mean we are sinful by nature, because we know we can "do by nature" those things contained in the law, as well. Rom. 2:14

But, you're correct, we will sin "soon enough"...just as Adam and Eve did. There are remedies for that, however, as God has made clear.

Certainly, every human has the ability to choose to do right or wrong, even a blind squirrel may find an acorn. God designed us so that we could choose, "by nature" to do right or wrong. To exercise free will, there must be choices. God provided good and excellent options, the Devil provides mediocre, sinful, evil options.

Even after an individual becomes a believer, they need to renew their minds to truth.

I know that in flesh dwells no good thing for. Until we become believers, we serve sin, but because we believe on Jesus Christ sin (sinful nature) no longer has dominion over us. However, believers still sin because they have no believed sufficiently to live according to that truth. Until we really believe that sin (sin nature) no longer has dominion over us, we continue to be subject to error. To the degree and proportion that we put on the mind of Christ, Philippians 2:5, etc. Romans 12:2;13:14

 

[Nick M]

Amen. I fully agree with this, and ... It feels good to agree with you, since we have been sharpening one another and scuffling.

I was referencing John 3, as well as the prophets. The glorified body does not covet, if the prophets are to be believed.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Certainly, every human has the ability to choose to do right or wrong, even a blind squirrel may find an acorn. God designed us so that we could choose, "by nature" to do right or wrong. To exercise free will, there must be choices. God provided good and excellent options, the Devil provides mediocre, sinful, evil options.

Even after an individual becomes a believer, they need to renew their minds to truth.

I know that in flesh dwells no good thing for. Until we become believers, we serve sin, but because we believe on Jesus Christ sin (sinful nature) no longer has dominion over us. However, believers still sin because they have no believed sufficiently to live according to that truth. Until we really believe that sin (sin nature) no longer has dominion over us, we continue to be subject to error. To the degree and proportion that we put on the mind of Christ, Philippians 2:5, etc. Romans 12:2;13:14

I look forward to [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] response Oatmeal... but I have one deep concern here...

You say what I have marked in red.

But the bible says...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

This seems to be an issue. Do you "believe" enough to "no longer sin"?

I only know of ONE that could live a single day without "sinning". Are you relating to sin that is "Transgression of the Law", or are you referring to "unbelief"?

There's only two. There is a third one, but it is unforgivable and I don't see that in any of our words here... so, we'll leave it at two.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I was referencing John 3, as well as the prophets. The glorified body does not covet, if the prophets are to be believed.

Nick M. ... you are an enigma. indeed... you are an enigma.

But... about the prophets... Jesus nodded towards their words with affirmation, so... I'll say they can be believed.

 

[glorydaz]

I look forward to [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] response Oatmeal... but I have one deep concern here...

You say what I have marked in red.

But the bible says...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

This seems to be an issue. Do you "believe" enough to "no longer sin"?

I only know of ONE that could live a single day without "sinning". Are you relating to sin that is "Transgression of the Law", or are you referring to "unbelief"?

There's only two. There is a third one, but it is unforgivable and I don't see that in any of our words here... so, we'll leave it at two.

I thought Oats was describing what it means to "Reckon" yourselves dead to sin...which requires an act of faith. It's when people try to do that in their own strength that they fail. Believe it to be so, because it is so. Don't fall for satan's lies.

As far as your response, EE, I find your reading of 1 John 1:8 has nothing to do with those who are IN CHRIST. We don't sin, because we are no longer under the law. Plain and simple. We are saints not sinners. We are not of the devil, but of the Spirit who dwells in us. When saints dwell on sin or accuse themselves of sin, they are playing into the devil's hands. We deny the very work of Christ on the cross. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?"

Reckon it to be so because it is so.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I thought Oats was describing what it means to "Reckon" yourselves dead to sin...which requires an act of faith. It's when people try to do that in their own strength that they fail. Believe it to be so, because it is so. Don't fall for satan's lies.

As far as your response, EE, I find your reading of 1 John 1:8 has nothing to do with those who are IN CHRIST. We don't sin, because we are no longer under the law. Plain and simple. We are saints not sinners. We are not of the devil, but of the Spirit who dwells in us. When saints dwell on sin or accuse themselves of sin, they are playing into the devil's hands. We deny the very work of Christ on the cross. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?"

Reckon it to be so because it is so.

I fully understand and agree. But I'm still eager to see Oatmeals response. I perceived something and I will render apology if I perceived incorrectly. There was specific wording that I marked in red that I desire Oats clarification on.

I recognize the DBR and the "trade", but in discussion... I never claim to be without sin, unless specifically verbalizing the "trade" and propitiation of the matter. This allows me to communicate clearly and get a read on specific matters.

I hope you are correct in the matter.

- EE

 

[glorydaz]

I fully understand and agree. But I'm still eager to see Oatmeals response. I perceived something and I will render apology if I perceived incorrectly. There was specific wording that I marked in red that I desire Oats clarification on.

Well, don't look too close at specific wording. It's a work in progress.

I recognize the DBR and the "trade", but in discussion... I never claim to be without sin, unless specifically verbalizing the "trade" and propitiation of the matter. This allows me to communicate clearly and get a read on specific matters.

Why not? Didn't Christ deal with sin at the cross? The "trade" has already taken place.

I hope you are correct in the matter.

- EE

On the "reckon" part, I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying.

 

[dodge]

Are you certain? Spiritual discernment that is razor sharp comes from this biblical point. Why did the Pharisees and teachers of the Law get called "vipers and serpents" which related directly to the account of Adam and Eve?

Mat 23:27
¶
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness


They talked the talk but did not walk the walk.

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4991105]Then why do you not believe this which is plainly literal?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Nothing you quoted negates the following:

Psa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[dodge]

I can see that. You stay in an error even when the context is put right in front of your eyes.

lol, you might wast to look in mirror you don't have a clue.

 

[Danoh]

Mat 23:27
¶
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness


They talked the talk but did not walk the walk.

Yep - the moment they found someone did not hold their view; out came their venom, and ganging up on said individual.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Even The Lord "failed" against such whited sepulchres.

 

[dodge]

Amen!
bout in Genesis 3. It binds to Heb. 2:14. Are you now saying the "Devil" has the power of initiating the "ACTUAL" Second Death? :idunno:

Cain offered a bloodless sacrifice and God protects "types" all throughout scripture.

Able prepared a lamb and blood was shed and offered, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission !

 

[dodge]

It's poetic license just as speaking evil from his mother's womb.:yawn:

I truly feel sorry for you if you believe the Holy Spirit took "poetic license" when He inspired those who wrote scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

I truly feel sorry for you if you believe the Holy Spirit took "poetic license" when He inspired those who wrote scripture.

Are you really that stupid? Clearly, the men who were inspired by the Spirit were more skilled in the use of literary devices than you are. Prose and poetry go beyond anything you have been exposed to, obviously.

 

[glorydaz]

Cain offered a bloodless sacrifice and God protects "types" all throughout scripture.

Able prepared a lamb and blood was shed and offered, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission !

Oh, dear....a literary device protected by God. Will wonders never cease. :chew:

 

[dodge]

Are you really that stupid? Clearly, the men who were inspired by the Spirit were more skilled in the use of literary devices than you are. Prose and poetry go beyond anything you have been exposed to, obviously.

Why are you being so obtuse. IF and that is a big if in your case you actually believe scripture it says no one wrote but what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write. Can you even read ?