ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

and then :


Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

You've already been given context to many of those. But... let's find common ground for a second. We both agree that whether a man is born Spiritually alive or dead... he will go astray and end up in need of Jesus... is that a fair middle ground and discussion point?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

When Adam was created he was without sin. He was not righteous, he was innocent.

And yet Eve was too. Both of them represent pristine moral neutrality and Spiritual life... but... they succumbed to temptation as we do. This leaves only one point... something is fishy here.

Perhaps the reconciliation is that only ONE is capable of walking in the flesh without succumbing to temptation... would you agree with this specific point?

 

[dodge]

You've already been given context to many of those. But... let's find common ground for a second. We both agree that whether a man is born Spiritually alive or dead... he will go astray and end up in need of Jesus... is that a fair middle ground and discussion point?

Good assessment, but the question is why . I believe it is because man is born not having sinned yet actively, but based on the "nature" he received from Adam's disobedience. As in Adam all die ,from the womb shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin etc.

We are all born needing Jesus based on scripture. It does not take a specific or certain amount of sin for a man to be a sinner he sins because he is already a sinner at conception .

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Good assessment, but the question is why . I believe is because man is born not having sinned yet actively, but based on the "nature" he received from Adam's disobedience.

Okay! Excellent. So the "why". Would you accept that "only God is good" as the answer to the question "why"? I'm not asking you to agree with me on every little nuance that I suggest... but I'm asking if Jesus' quoted words... "Only God is good" ... is a fair common ground to further this new tangent of agreeable discussion.

 

[dodge]

Okay! Excellent. So the "why". Would you accept that "only God is good" as the answer to the question "why"? I'm not asking you to agree with me on every little nuance that I suggest... but I'm asking if Jesus' quoted words... "Only God is good" ... is a fair common ground to further this new tangent of agreeable discussion.

That does not take into account that Adam and Eve were good before they disobeyed God , and we all live the consequences of their disobedience.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

That does not take into account that Adam and Eve were good before they disobeyed God , and we all live the consequences of their disobedience.

Are you certain? If Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever... wouldn't it be fair to say that His statement that "Only God is good" reaches into eternity?

I am employing a bit of effort into drawing your attention onto a more specific matter, but I am still aligned with scripture and I would even suggest that I have a solid point.

Allow me to ask this in a more direct way...

Will anything ever be as "GOOD" as God?

 

[dodge]

Are you actually defending the idea that bones actually rejoice? It surprises me none!

Jerry , because an expression or type is used in scripture to make a point does not give "anyone" the right to place what they want in the type category when other scripture is plainly literal. The Roman Catholics, J.W'S, Mormons , and all the cults do exactly that. A text taken out of context is nothing more than a pretext.

 

[dodge]

Are you certain? If Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever... wouldn't it be fair to say that His statement that "Only God is good" reaches into eternity?

I am employing a bit of effort into drawing your attention onto a more specific matter, but I am still aligned with scripture and I would even suggest that I have a solid point.

Allow me to ask this in a more direct way...

Will anything ever be as "GOOD" as God?

No nothing was ,is, or will ever be as good as God.


E.E., scripture teaches that "all die in Adam" and if scripture is followed in its natural flow and sequence of events you will see the next major event after the disobedience is:

Cain and Abel in the "process of time" bring their offerings to God
Cain offers veggies( the work of his own hands) and God ejects his offering.

Able prepares a lamb ( sheds the blood of an animal) God accepts his offering.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.


God was the only one good has nothing to do with Adam disobeying Him. God gave Adam the capacity to NOT disobey Him otherwise God made a machine with a program, which He did not do !

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No nothing was ,is, or will ever be as good as God.


E.E., scripture teaches that "all die in Adam" and if scripture is followed in its natural flow and sequence of events you will see the next major event after the disobedience is:

Cain and Abel in the "process of time" bring their offerings to God
Cain offers veggies( the work of his own hands) and God ejects his offering.

Able prepares a lamb ( sheds the blood of an animal) God accepts his offering.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.


God was the only one good has nothing to do with Adam disobeying Him. God gave Adam the capacity to NOT disobey Him otherwise God made a machine with a program, which He did not do !

Are you certain? Spiritual discernment that is razor sharp comes from this biblical point. Why did the Pharisees and teachers of the Law get called "vipers and serpents" which related directly to the account of Adam and Eve?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry , because an expression or type is used in scripture to make a point does not give "anyone" the right to place what they want in the type category when other scripture is plainly literal.

Then why do you not believe this which is plainly literal?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Why don't you believe the following words of the Lord Jesus about little children which are obviously literal?"

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord believed that infants are dead spiritually but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If the idea of Original Sin is correct then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that the Lord Jesus was teaching that unless we become dead spiritualy we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven! That is patently ridiculous and common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus did not believe that infants come into this world spiritually dead.

 

[Iconoclast85]

Then you should have no problem citing chapter and verse. opcorn:

psalm51
5*Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Nick M]

I forgot to ask... are you referring to 2 Co. 5:19 in your verbiage of the impact of Christ's DBR and dispensation of grace through Paul?

In general, you will know when I state opinions. Otherwise, I am just parroting Paul. Yes, I was referencing that exactly. It isn't my original thought.

 

[Nick M]

Perhaps the reconciliation is that only ONE is capable of walking in the flesh without succumbing to temptation... would you agree with this specific point?

So far there has only been one. Man's track record, as proven by the law, is not so good. Not until they are born again, born of the Spirit and have the law written on their hearts that the Israelites will keep the law. The prophets have said so, since you asked once already.

 

[glorydaz]

That is the point. Your conclusion is wrong. Paul uses the term "therefore" because he is giving a lesson. Adam disobeyed God leading to death. You claim you don't see death. Well, why do we need his life then?


18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

At the other side is the Lord Jesus Christ, giving life. The opposite of what happens in Adam.

No doubt Paul is giving a lesson, but the lesson isn't that sin, itself, is infused into Adam's descendants, as the doctrine of original sin claims. We need His life because the wages of sin is death...we earn those wages when we fulfil the lusts of the flesh, etc.

 

[glorydaz]

Yep :thumb:

It is why babies die - the wages of ("tes" or "the" - the wages of The) sin is death, and by one man's trangression, all were made sinners; handed down via the conception resulting from a man and a woman's physical union.

There's some scripture rewriting for you all to see.

That's how it's done, folks, and that's how lies get passed down to the gullible ones.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So far there has only been one. Man's track record, as proven by the law, is not so good. Not until they are born again, born of the Spirit and have the law written on their hearts that the Israelites will keep the law. The prophets have said so, since you asked once already.

Amen. I fully agree with this, and ... It feels good to agree with you, since we have been sharpening one another and scuffling.

:thumb:

Now... about the points we disagree on... I want you to know that it hurts me to be right when you are wrong.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

In general, you will know when I state opinions. Otherwise, I am just parroting Paul. Yes, I was referencing that exactly. It isn't my original thought.

To this... I will simply say AMEN! Preach on Brother Nick M.!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No nothing was ,is, or will ever be as good as God.

Amen!

E.E., scripture teaches that "all die in Adam" and if scripture is followed in its natural flow and sequence of events you will see the next major event after the disobedience is:

I and no-one here disagrees that "Death" of the "Physical" type, comes from this matter. This is the very appointment of Death that we read about in Genesis 3. It binds to Heb. 2:14. Are you now saying the "Devil" has the power of initiating the "ACTUAL" Second Death? :idunno:

Cain and Abel in the "process of time" bring their offerings to God
Cain offers veggies( the work of his own hands) and God ejects his offering.

Able prepares a lamb ( sheds the blood of an animal) God accepts his offering.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Is that the meaning of the story? I always read that Able gave of a sincere heart, full of humility, while Cain had pride in the toil of the soil.

Which interpretation binds to ALL scripture about sin? Is. 14:14 anyone? Or how about why God chose Daniel.

Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words.​

And again... The fall is entitled... Well, the FALL... and note this?

Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.​

I mean... if the blood of animals actually "remitted" sin... then why do we have this scripture?

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.​

not possible seems to refute your theological theory quite well. :idunno:

God was the only one good has nothing to do with Adam disobeying Him. God gave Adam the capacity to NOT disobey Him otherwise God made a machine with a program, which He did not do !

I generated a massive OP that cited enormous amounts of scripture on this matter and even used scripture to show Adam's "heart motive" of his "disobedience", but ironically... it has gone unrefuted. :idunno:

Massive, Unrefuted OP Link Here

 

[glorydaz]

You'll find that the wages of sin is death and not the wages of dust. Man dies and returns to dust, because of sin.

I'm referring to the use of the term "in Adam" being used in a way Paul never intended. As a result of Adam's sin, all die (physically) even those who had not sinned like Adam did. People can argue all they want about whether or not we are born with Adam's sin, but they are wrong to rob from this wonderful chapter to prove a point Paul never intended.

Therefore, what is being discussed in this particular chapter is the fact that Adam was of the earth (earthly), and our physical death and the resurrection from the dead when we are raised with spiritual bodies.

1 Cor. 15:20-21 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

1 Cor. 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

psalm51
5*Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Hello Iconoclast85,

Shall we post that in context?

Psalm 51

A Prayer of Repentance

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

51 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,[a]
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.​

This seems to be a Psalm of "Repentance that uses verbiage of humility and speech that is expressing David's "Humility". This seems to support the "Pride is the original sin theory".

But... It doesn't seem to be about actual birth of "Spiritual Death". It seems that ... as [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] has already pointed out... David's "Spirit" is broken before "God".

Did God actually "Break" David's bones to encourage his repentance in the tale of Bathsheba? I always thought that Nathan used the very words of God to do this?

Should we now take it out of ...................

"context"?​