ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"

AVmetro

AVmetro

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o2bwise

o2bwise

>>>Regardless, you mention sin ETERNALLY REMAINING. That is interesting. It's like a vicious circle. Sin resides in one place, in the consciousness of sinners. The only way sin can eternally remain is if the sinner lives eternally. If the sinner were to cease to exist, the sin would cease to exist as well. <<<

Rather, the sin itself remains eternally within God's memory as going unpunished. God's justice demands punishment for sin. If sin can only be taken away by Jesus then a sin otherwise remains for eternity. Therefore that sin must be punished eternally because it was never atoned for.
See kinda what I'm saying?......As I have shown, sin is not aquitted with the death of the sinner.

Rather only through Christ.."Now if we died WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since christ was raised from the dead, he CANNOT die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin ONCE FOR ALL; but the lif he lives, he lives to God. Rom6:8-10

God bless you...;)
 
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o2bwise

o2bwise

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Nope, Makes No Sense

Nope, Makes No Sense

Hi AV,

Rather, the sin itself remains eternally within God's memory as going unpunished. God's justice demands punishment for sin. If sin can only be taken away by Jesus then a sin otherwise remains for eternity. Therefore that sin must be punished eternally because it was never atoned for.

So...your definition of the term "sin itself remains eternally within God's memory" is equivalent to "than a sin otherwise remains for eternity?"

That is not rational, AV. I remember my daughter as a three year old. That is part of my memory. However, my three year old daughter does not "remain."


See kinda what I'm saying?......As I have shown, sin is not aquitted with the death of the sinner.

I see it, but it makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, sin is never acquitted. Guilty parties are acquitted, but not their sin. The idea of sin itself being acquitted is nonsensical to me.

God Bless Ya,

Tony (o2)
 
AVmetro

AVmetro

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Re: Nope, Makes No Sense

Re: Nope, Makes No Sense

Hey o2,

>>>That is not rational, AV. I remember my daughter as a three year old. That is part of my memory. However, my three year old daughter does not "remain." <<<

This isn't quite the analogy to use in this case. Your three year daughter changes with progression, a sin does not.
More comparable is a murderer. Even if he murdered someone fifty years ago, he is to be jailed if he were caught today.
A sin must go punished once committed.

God bless...
 
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cirisme

Guest
I see in your post NO justification for eternal conscious torment.
Click to expand...

I've told you so many times now: it has little to do with justice. It has everything to do with seperation from God. You deaf by choice... all you are interested in is arguing.

Good luck, AVmetro, hopefully you can convince him to stop arguing and listen.
 
AVmetro

AVmetro

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o2bwise

o2bwise

Hey o2,

Where is your problem with "Hell" stemming from? Is it from particular scriptures or from a potential problem you may have with seeing God's nature?
This will help me know how to approach the subject.
Please understand that "Hell" in no wise takes away from the great love that is in God. :)

God bless you...
 
o2bwise

o2bwise

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Stop Presuming!

Stop Presuming!

I ADVISE YOU TO STOP JUDGING ME. STOP PRESUMING MOTIVE.

I've told you so many times now: it has little to do with justice. It has everything to do with seperation from God. You deaf by choice... all you are interested in is arguing.

Good luck, AVmetro, hopefully you can convince him to stop arguing and listen.

SO WHAT IF THEY ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD!!! WHY DO THEY HAVE TO REMAIN ALIVE FOREVER? ESPECIALLY SINCE IT HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH JUSTICE?

You are presuming and you are presuming WRONG. You need to go to God and get your heart right about this. This is ridiculous.
 
o2bwise

o2bwise

New member
No Problems

No Problems

Hi AV,

Where is your problem with "Hell" stemming from?

Foremost, the position that the lost experience eternal conscious torment is UNBIBLICAL.

Is it from particular scriptures or from a potential problem you may have with seeing God's nature?

I don't think my discernment as to what is truth on the matter is due to a potential problem I have with seeing God's nature.

This will help me know how to approach the subject.

I just hope we can all be teachable.

Please understand that "Hell" in no wise takes away from the great love that is in God.

I don't think I can understand that, but since I believe the view is false anyway, I don't think it is understandable.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)
 
o2bwise

o2bwise

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Source of Punishment

Source of Punishment

A sin must go punished once committed.

The punishment stems from sin and not from God.

Do you understand that, AV?
 
wickwoman

wickwoman

New member
I believe the story of the rich man and the poor man in the after life points to a justice system set up by God that some call karma. God does not have to administer the punishment any more than God has to maintain the earth on its axis. He created a self sufficient system in every way and it is built to maintain itself as long as needed.

In the case of wrongs committed against other human beings, karma (or Biblically an eye for an eye) takes care of the just and appropriate "righting" of that wrong. In the case of the rich man and the poor man in the afterlife found in the Bible, notice the rich man suffers the same needs that he caused the poor man to endure while alive. The rich man has traded places with the poor man and now it is he who is desiring a drink of water instead of the poor man.

The scripture that says it is God's desire that none should perish points to the idea that - none will. How could it be that God's will would not be done? Also, when Jesus says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me" is another example. Notice he said ALL. This is evidence that all of us will pay our karmic debts and eventually be together with God in eternity.
 
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cirisme

Guest
You are presuming and you are presuming WRONG. You need to go to God and get your heart right about this. This is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

If you feel so strongly, you must have evidence for it. Show it to me... I've shown mine, now show yours.
 
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cirisme

Guest
We've presented arguements, reason, and evidence for our view. Now show yours... you can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without showing us why.
 
o2bwise

o2bwise

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Support Number One

Support Number One

Cirisme,

Evidence #1 (and this one I came to on my own):
There are several texts in the Bible, the OT mainly, which are rendered as FOREVER in the English. Of these texts, many are obviously referring to periods of FINITE TIME DURATION.

Now, the word rendered as forever in the NT is AION or some other form of it.

If you grab an LXX (Septuagint), which is a Greek OT and was used around the times of Christ, you can do a word search on AION to see its uses.

What you will find is that it is the word the Greek translators chose to use for those texts which described events of finite time duration.


Conclusion:
EVERY text that has the word AION in it, cannot be taken to mean infinite time (eternity) ON THAT BASIS.

The word is neutral. It is dependent on the nature of the surrounding text, much like the word ALWAYS.

This means that what has been the most forceful support for the idea of eternal conscious torment IS NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER.


If I couple that with just one more thought...
Every view is such that there are texts which SEEM to support a contrasting view. Free will verses staunch Calvinism. Sabbath versus Sunday versus any day, to name a couple.

If one really wants to know the truth, what one ought to do is read the Bible in its entirety and reference EVERY text that seems to talk about the topic in question.

And just line them up.

Now, when one realizes that texts with AION do not require eternal conscious torment, on that basis, and just does a rigorous accounting of all texts (placing those texts as neutral), the following is that one will find.

It is a slam-dunk. It is not even close. The number of texts that seem to point to ultimate anihilation exceeds those texts that seem to support eternal conscious torment by perhaps 20 to 1.

It is an absolute landslide.

Take Care...

Tony (o2)
 
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cirisme

Guest
Excellent debating style. :rolleyes: You make a claim and leave proof to support your claim as an exercise for the reader.

I do very poorly without proof, give me concrete examples, not just arguements and accusations.
 
o2bwise

o2bwise

New member
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This describes an event of finite time duration. In the LXX, the Greek word used is aion (or some form of it). Aion is always used, regardless of the duration of time.

I don't have the present wherewithal to supply every single text that SEEMS to support anihilation, but there are several.

John 3:16 is one of many examples. Something that has perished is generally considered to not be.
 
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cirisme

Guest
John 3:16 is one of many examples. Something that has perished is generally considered to not be.
Click to expand...

No to be physically, yes.

The word is neutral. It is dependent on the nature of the surrounding text, much like the word ALWAYS.
...
Aion is always used, regardless of the duration of time.
Click to expand...

So you concede that the potential use of this word does not always mean finite? That would make your previous arguement moot, wouldn't it?
 
D

Dude-eronomy

New member
This is a real question

This is a real question

... and not a backhanded way of making a point:

If Christ's sacrifice of himself for us is real and our sins are forgiven, wouldn't hell be for those who think it exits?

--Mark
 
AVmetro

AVmetro

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Wickwoman

Wickwoman

I believe the story of the rich man and the poor man in the after life points to a justice system set up by God that some call karma. God does not have to administer the punishment any more than God has to maintain the earth on its axis. He created a self sufficient system in every way and it is built to maintain itself as long as needed.

In the case of wrongs committed against other human beings, karma (or Biblically an eye for an eye) takes care of the just and appropriate "righting" of that wrong. In the case of the rich man and the poor man in the afterlife found in the Bible, notice the rich man suffers the same needs that he caused the poor man to endure while alive. The rich man has traded places with the poor man and now it is he who is desiring a drink of water instead of the poor man.

The scripture that says it is God's desire that none should perish points to the idea that - none will. How could it be that God's will would not be done? Also, when Jesus says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me" is another example. Notice he said ALL. This is evidence that all of us will pay our karmic debts and eventually be together with God in eternity.
Click to expand...


This was WAY OUT THERE!! :) <cool>
 
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